Shanghainese Girl Marrying Foreigners

I was asked (more than once) about my point of view of Shanghainese girls marrying foreigners. This is a controversal topic.

You will see this topic here and there:

Another question for you Jianshuo though it might spark off a lot of hot debates (both positive and negative).

Why are there so many women in China who are dying to marry foreigners (mostly westerners but also Asians from developed countries like Japan, Singapore, Taiwan …you can’t call HK a country but yeah, HK as well? I don’t see as many Chinese man marrying foreign women.

It is a “social trend” or real love? Most of these women are in their early 20s while their “partner” are at least in their 40s (from observations, for course I don’t know their exact age).

Would like to hear your views on this.

Posted by: Elaine on November 9, 2006 02:50 PM

Or

Speaking of marriage, one thing bothers me a great deal is seeing so many young Chinese women (especially the Shanghainese) marrying foreign men old enough to be their fathers, or dating married foreign men knowing they are married. Oh well, this is a touchy subject…

Posted by: tamie on March 20, 2007 12:26 PM

Or

China has been opening up for many years, and the Chinese now knows a little more of the outside world now.

Perhaps you should think of WHY Chinese in some cases prefer foreigners instead of Chinese.

Perhaps because foreigners has far more knowledge of the rest of the world outside China,

due to the free press, and the holiday travels to other countries which most foreigners do quite often.

That makes them more interesting in the Chinese’ eyes.

And marrying a foreigner opens many new doors for you outside China.

Worth to think about, when someone is just fed up by all the control, the rules and the whole system here….

Posted by: carsten on March 20, 2007 09:04 PM

My Point of View

First of all, I don’t think some form of the question itself is not appropriate. For example: “Do you think Shanghainese girl should marry a foreigner or not?” I believe both answers (Yes or No) are not the right answer? Why? It seems like discrimination. I know many people don’t think it has anything to do with discrimination. I didn’t realize it before until I thought carefully about this issue recently.

Martin Lurther King was a wise man. He said in 1963 that

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

It is wise and clear enough. I would use the same words for people debating whether Shanghainese should marry foreigners:

The marriage of two person should be judged by the nature of their love instead of their original, nationality, color of skins, religious, or race

(Some declare to add gender into this sentence. I am not that sure yet, but I am at least not 100% opposite to it)

So, marriage is marriage, love is love. It has nothing to do with whether the husband is a foreigner or not. The same for the wife.

The Question is More Than That

Of cause I know many people ask the question not just because of the difference in nationality, they are asking the other question:

“Are Shanghainese girls marry foreigners just for money?”

“Are foreigners treat girls in China not as seriously, and play with them?”

“Are the Shanghainese girls just show off, or something else?”

I know there are many questions like this need to be answered.

I do agree there are always statistical distribution of certain behaviors. For example, we can say that “the statistical average wealth of expats in Shanghai is higher than the average of local people in Shanghai.”. I don’t see anything wrong with this statement if the real number shows so, but to generalize any statement to be “all foreigners are richer than local people” is not correct, and to generalize all Shanghainese girls marry foreigners just for money” is completely wrong. Percentage? It seems it should be higher but there is no data support.

So the question should be transformed into a new one: “Is it proper for a girl to marry someone just for his money?” This is a question with less discrimination intend. Generally, people’s answer is “No”. This kind of marriage does not only exists in a cross-culture family, and also exists (largely) in China.

To be Short…

To be short, I don’t think it is Right or Wrong for a Shanghainese girl to marry a foreigner, because it has nothing to do with nationality, or race. To take it as a factor to judge whether it is right or wrong is inappropriate.

166 Comments

  1. Perhaps, this is partly due to the “contribution” of the media conveniences. Nowadays, it is not hard for most people to learn about other countries. This may let one discover something they like over the other places. When being amplified with the imagination or fascination, these may lead to the desire to choose the foreigner as their spouse.

  2. interesting discussion. just one complaint, isn’t discriminating people based on their money (or lack thereof) discrimination anyway?

    that doesn’t make it any better than discriminating based on colour right? that may explain why rural migrants are looked down upon and not afforded the same rights in cities because they come from rural areas….

  3. calling Westerners ‘foreigners’ makes me feel like an unwelcome outsider.

  4. My nephew married a lovely Shanghai girl who is a real asset to our family. They married for love and friendship and are just so good together. Ten family members from the USA came to the wedding in Shanghai and (of course) there were MANY more Chinese family members at the wedding. We had ten days of sightseeing, eating fantastic food, enjoying the family mix and we loved every minute. Oh yes, the couple are just about the same age.

  5. Shrek7, you should be happy that we’re not calling you “gaijin” or “wai’ren” in Chinese. Generally speaking, “laowai” doesn’t denote the meaning of what the word “outsider” infers :)

    Welcome to China!

  6. Let speak about Foreign Girl – Chinese Man couple:

    Since I am in China I have seen around once a Year a couple foreigner woman with Chinese man (most of the time when you think you find such a couple, the guy is Westerners, born aboard with Chinese parent) .

    So, the Question is not that Western girls do not want boyfriend with a Chinese body, but that because of the character/behaviours of local Chinese they do not want.

    So, Chinese man stop complaining and adapt, or accept not to date foreign girls.

    For Western Guy playing around with Chinese Girls:

    It is REALLY hard to find a Chinese girl with who a foreigner can really match for long term due to cultural difference (I made the experience). So, many Foreigners living her for long term finish to have short term relationship after short term relationship. Some like me say directly: “sorry we can not be boy-friend girl-friend, but just lover” Some just become lover, then change because it can not work with this girl. Furthermore many foreigner are in China only for short term (6 to 12 months).

    For Chinese girl being with Foreigner:

    I think there is many reasons:

    — Nowadays in China be a Foreigner is seen as good/trendy/fashion

    — Now in China have a Foreign face (nose and eyes for example) is a sign of beauty for many.

    — Money is often a reason (even more in Shanghai where people are more materialistic)

    — Foreigners are often less shy and more funny than Chinese

    — Foreigners have generally more experience with girls

    — Foreigners will more often surprise the girls, and provide her new experiences (new way of party, new activities)

    — Foreigners are usually more open-minded

    — Etc….

    An inconvenient true? (To make people react:)

    I have hear many of my Ex-Chinese girls friend saying that before with her ex-Chinese boyfriend they only make love one or twice a month…. No foreigner will ever do it so few if he has a girlfriend. So does Chinese girls lake of sex ?

    886

  7. Jianshuo, you are right.

    I try to believe that people get married because of love and they fall in love because of personality. I don’t believe in nationality or anything like that when considering the relationships. Of course different people have different kind of personality and it also affects what kind of people they feel attractive and who they fall in love with.

    But what I know? Maybe my view isn’t so true :-)

    I have found myself in a airplane travelling to Shanghai because there is a girl waiting for me in Shanghai, I didn’t fall in love because she was beautiful and from Shanghai. I fell in love because of her personality and how she looked at life. Too bad that it did end recently but not because of nationality.

    And I might be a foreigner and sometimes it is a good thing for us Westerners to feel like a foreigner to remind us that there is world outside of Europe and North America too. The most importantly, she never thought me as a foreigner and I never thought her as a Chinese girl from Shanghai.

    Did someone get my point … been long day already.

  8. The real cause of the complaint is that a large number of bachelors are unable to find brides. People can’t find a wife and think “the foreigners are taking our women”.

    And the cause of that problem is the Communist Government’s one-child policy, which dramatically increased sex-selective abortion and infanticide. As a result, the sex ratio at birth (between male and female births) in mainland China reached 117:100 in the year 2000. (Note: The sex ratio is between 1.03 and 1.07 in most countries. In China, the ratio had been at 108:100 in 1981. This is proof of an extreme side-effect of the one-child policy.)

    This is a disaster in the making. And the problem is going to get much worse in the years to come. Literally millions and millions of Chinese men will be life along bachelors.

    The one-child policy has created a number of other well known social problems. Combined, these problems are way worse than the potential problem of over-population.

    The damage has been done. But we don’t have to make it worse. I call on the Chinese Communist Government to abolish the ill-conceived one-child policy.

  9. This topic is very interesting from am america viewpoint. The fact is chinese woman in many cities not just shanghai date foreigners. In the USA we would consider it racist to say people should only date people from their own race. This is what you really are saying. The reverse is true why are foreigners dating chinese girls?

    I am an American with a Chinese girlfriend. We enjoy the differences in culture and yes the fact that we have a more worldly view is important. You will find in every country a certain percentage of the population likes cross cultural marriages. Not just in China. Money is not the big issue. There are many wealthy chinese men now and I know chinese girls with foreigners who have not much money. The fact is when you have so many people you will have a certain percentage that wants to experience different things.

    The biggest thing I have heard in Shanghai is that wealthy Chinese men treat women badly. They have too many girlfriends and switch easily so some women prefer western men. There are always bad men no matter from where.

    So yes some foreign men treat woman badly as well. Again its not a cultural statement.

    The vast majority of chinese women even in shanghai marry chinese men. I dont think this is an issue. Also, many women marry for money all over the world not just in shanghai. Look at Anna Nicole Smith. China is very focused on money and material possessions this is a society issue on the whole. So its not unusual for women to seek successful men its the same everywhere. If a man marries a woman who is just crazy for money then he has either chosen badly or the situation works for them. Money is an attraction as much as looks, culture etc.

    Again women stay with men for different reasons. In the USA young women go with much older men. China is not unusual. Some girls value security and need a father figure for them to feel happy. I would imagine this is a very small number of actual marriages.

    We are becoming a global village and very dependent on each other. It is a very old and ignorant viewpoint to say races should stay separate. This is what starts wars and maintains hostility. Every horror inflicted by man against man comes from this basic viewpoint that we are not the same and that other cultures should be purged.

    Cross cultural relationships bring understanding of different cultures and for those of us a much more expanded viewpoint. I do not consider myself bad because I am not with an American girl. I feel comfortable with the cultures and would not want to be with anyone else. People of the same culture and religion get divorced all the time. There is no recipe for happiness. Its just two people deciding there future.

  10. Nick, so true. People from different cultures can teach so much to each other. Cross cultural relationships are helping everyone to understand other cultures.

  11. I’m a graduate student here at University of Florida. I spent six years in Shanghai. Here’s my 2 cents of this topic.

    I don’t like the fact that girls marrying or dating expats become such a trendy thing among them. First of all, I think most western guys may think Chinese girls love them because they are more attractive and those girls have the excitement and curiosity when dating a guy from other country. This is true for some girls, but it’s not the main reason for the majority in my opinion. Some of western guys might even think it is because girls in China lacks of good sex which I highly doubt (western guys may be better in sex in general, but not so much better as they think, guys from east are more considerate and etc..). I think the main reason is girls like money and showing off. On the same time they think high of themselves. Especially for girls from Shanghai which is the most modern and open city in China. They are material and like showing off. They think dating an expat separate them from other normal girls. They also like to show off to the girls in the same circle which makes other girls jealous. Also guys from western countries are usually much richer than guys in China at the same age. So dating an expat make her feel good and safe. There are a lot of rich older Chinese men as well, But girls think high of themselves don’t want to date old rich men because they feel like if they do so they are like whores.

    I know this happens all over the world, but I don’t like the fact. It makes girls in big cities more material and money oriented when they choose boyfriends. It’s not healthy for the whole city and country. Young Boys who trying to get a good girl friend need to compete against other bright young men and also fight against money and jealousness. This is a huge pressure if you ask me. They need to work harder to get money and sometimes that makes them mentally unhealthy. They become more and more money oriented as well. Some Girls who date or marry expats become unhappy when she find out the difference of the culture and the jealousness will never end.

    Well, its’ just my opinion.

  12. I think there are some very interesting things here. First, I think “youyouyou” makes some really good points. Secondly, it is a bit striking that 2 out of the 3 questions are coming from girls, its not the usual Chinese males complaining about foreigners taking their women.

    The one thing I would say is that there ARE girls in China that will date or marry a foreigner not due to love but instead because of money or chasing a foreign passport. For the most part those kind of girls aren’t “good” girls and most Chinese guys wouldn’t want them.

    Well, for a good blog that looks at how foreign men are in China, I think ChinaDirt does a great job of that (http://chinadirt.blogspot.com)

    Beyond that, I think there is an interesting question if foreign-chinese marriages in Shanghai are any higher than in other cities? While access and interaction to foreigners is greater in Shanghai, the people are richer and have higher standards so its hard to say.

  13. I humbly think that Yanqing Chen (see post above) offered a much better explanation for the phenomenon than Shanghai’s truest ambassador Wang JianShou.

  14. Do you think TaiWan is a country?

  15. Well, I married a Shanghainese girl. The Shanghai boys had 39 years of opportunity before I claimed her so it is their loss and my big big gain!

    I sat on a bench outside the Shanghai Portman Ritz-Carlton last October and it was disturbing to see the number of “mixed couples” passing by, mismatched by age, weight, or any number of other things that make a couple look compatible. However, at least in terms of economics and romance, China is a free country, so what are you going to do?

    This isn’t a new phenomena; ask your Granny about the “jeep girls”!!

  16. I came across this clip on youtube about the subject, these kids get it…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63bWYFGBTuE

  17. An interesting article.

    Which show that in China it is quite normal to look for money:

    Beauty graduates busy seeking marriage

    http://www.chinaview.cn 2006-11-22 13:37:10

    BEIJING, Nov. 22 — House, car and money are a must, while previous marriages, looks and degrees don’t matter. More good-looking female university graduates in Xiamen are more interested in looking for a husband than looking for jobs.

    Most of the students going to matchmaking agents are from other cities who study in Xiamen. They told the reporter frankly, “The pressure to look for a job is too much. Never mind that it takes several months to find a job — the low salary of 1,000 yuan every month would keep us from going to work. We would prefer to have a successful man take care of us.”

    “I don’t want to go back to my hometown. Marrying a rich man would bypass 20 years of hard work.”

    Girls with bachelor degrees have a high possibility to realize their dream since successful men prefer better halves with higher education.

    (Source: CRIENGLISH.com)

    Editor: Fiona Zhu

    Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-11/22/content_5362129.htm

  18. From my observation in the United States, the American husbands of Chinese women are often of a higher cultural calibre than potential Chinese counterparts. They tend to be highly intelligent and caring, as well as interested in other cultures. When compared to men that grew up in China, they tend to be more open-minded and less culturally dogmatic.

    One example is how many Chinese people are sensitive to criticism of China, even when their country makes a mistake. (e.g., piracy of DVDs, electronics, cars, etc.) They quickly rationalise and create excuses, regardless of merit, often bashing the other person for “not understanding”. Of course, many foreigners are like that too, but judging from experience, many more are capable of seeing issues from both sides. Men tend to be like this more than women. If I were a Chinese woman, I may well marry a foreign man (Chinese men of your worldview level, Jianshuo, are uncommon). For the same reason, I am with an ABC woman. :)

  19. Very interesting topic today Jain Shuo.

    And, from my own personal experience, a lot of young Japanese girls like to date foreign (mostly western, but also a lot of latin, and to a lesser extent, orientals) men. And it’s mostly NOT for money in their case but rather to show off the ‘tall and strong’ boyfriends to their friends.

    I’m also intrigued by your comment:

    [QUOTE] Some declare to add gender into this sentence. I am not that sure yet, but I am at least not 100% opposite to it [/QUOTE]

    I apprecaite your open mindness as to not “100%” oppose it. But I do sense a certain amount of opposition.

    As a gay ethnic Chinese, I’s like to hear about (if you are willing to share it of course) what is your opposition to the idea of same sex marriage? I have been together with my current boyfriend for nearly 4 years now, and we have made engagement and plan to get ‘registered in a civil partnership’ – the closest that can be called ‘marriage’ in the UK.

    I’d like to think our unifivation is a fruit of love (incidently, my boyfriend is white, AND I have seen equally as many gay oriental guys seeking out older white person for money or whatever). When compare a girl that marries for money (gold diggers) or 2 gay guys want to marry for love, which is more appropriate or acceptable to you?

    At the end of the day, my feeling is ‘marriage’ is nothing but a label, or a ceremony, it’s suppose to signify something – ie, the love between the couple and their willingness to be companions to each other come what may. As a conceptual term, it’s just as fragile as any other names besponed upon other things. So if me and my partner can stick to these ideals, then wether we get called ” a married couple”, or “a civil partner pairing” makes no difference to us.

  20. P.S. It is relatively less common to see Chinese men with foreign women. Quite curious. I have no sure answers to why this is the case.

    But one of the issues maybe culture related. Chinese men are tend to be more reserved and introverted in their courting behavious than western males. And western girls may not be picking up the too subtle hints?

    Lack of self-confidence might play a part here too – girls tend to fall for confident guys who is sure of themselves. Years of stereotyping and lack of understanding may push some Chinese males into lacking that level of confidence.

    Anyway these are only my guesses.

  21. Very interesting post… Here’s some related reading your readers might find interesting, though not about marriage, per se — more a North American perspective on Western men and their attraction to Asian women:

    http://www.fredoneverything.net/AsianWomen.shtml

    Enjoy!

  22. I am of Chinese decent and I’ve never dated a Chinese girl.

    Anyways, any Chinese girls in the Washington, D.C. area interested in dinner and a movie this Friday?

    http://ponyphotos.blogspot.com/

  23. I take exception to Ronglimeng comments. Its “disturbing” to see mixed couples. Why should people need to conform to what you think a compatiable couple should be?

    I also dont like the idea people think its “trendy”. Do any of you know China or Japan? I tend to give people more credit. If you are talking high school girls then immature girls do trendy things. If you are talking about a serious relationship moving to marriage I think both people put alot of thought into it. I know Iam engaged to a chinese girl from Shanghai. There is enormous family scrutiny before the family approves. Dont mix casual dating with serious relationships.

    First would you date someone who was an unsuccessful slob? The fact is expats by their nature are educated businessmen or they would not be there. In every country woman tend to be attracted to successful educated men. This is part of the culture in most countries.

    The population of expats that are not ethnic chinese is so small compared to the population in shanghai its laughable to worry that all girls are running to foreigners. If a chinese man can not find a suitable girl in shanghai its because they have not left their house. The population of chinese women that speak english and are interested in foreign men is really very small. Its just suprising people still have racist ignorance.

    Dont sit in front of the Portman. Its where the US Consulate is and most mixed couples tend to walk by there.

    If you are a single foreigner living in China. Guess what 99.9% of the girls are chinese. So I guess you will have a chinese GF.

    China has a long and rich culture. The woman are both beautiful and sensitive. They are very family oriented and this is very appealing. I feel I am so lucky to be with someone from this background. I do not think I would have found a better match in the states.

    Remember the percentage of divorces are higher amongst people of their own culture. There is no guarantee for happiness. Age, looks whatever its up to two people and that is there business.

  24. This is indeed an interesting topic in several ways.

    Firstly from a Western female perspective – many of us in China are also rather successful and well educated people – just like the male expats. We work hard and have grand visions that push us to move overseas to places like China, seeking many things…

    This often challenges men in Western countries, and I see no reason why it would not be challenging to Chinese men as well. As we have ventured outside of our own countries, we are by default rather independent and assertive females.

    When I lived in Taiwan I often heard of Taiwanese men who would travel abroad to find wives that would be more ‘traditional’ in the sense that they would be submissive to the man – ie. generally less educated, more willing to put up with being controlled by a man, loyal without question or expectation of the husbands fidelity and obedient to both the man and his family…

    These wives (which make up one fifth of marriages in Taiwan) are from mainland China, the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand.

    These men either did not want, or felt they could not get (ie the women did not want them) – a more modern, and rather educated Taiwanese wife.

    Anyone seem the Bollywood movie “Bride and Prejudice”? There is an Indian man who has “made it” in the USA, but comes back to India to find a ‘traditional wife’, largely because he has no intention of treating them with the respect and allowing them the independence that women (even Indian migrant women) have in the USa.

    This happens all around the world in many migrant groups – move to a more liberal society, enjoy the lifestyle – return to conservative homeland where women will think you are great, are less educated then you and will therefore be content with you (the man) and less of a challenge to you. And often also are excited by the prospect of moving overseas.

    Meanwhile with the Chinese female – Western male combination, you have a generally more submissive female with a person who perhaps is not interested (for whatever reasons) in being attracted to more assertive and in control women.

    This can and does indeed cross genders, but it is interesting again as the gender roles are blurred when dealing with same sex relationship.

    I for one had a Singaporean girlfriend who I was very much attracted to but the relationship failed due to her need to assert control over me, and my belief that my independence in not negotiable. So these roles and conflicts in them can indeed cross into the queer realm.

    and of course these are still generalisations – and that there are certainly assertive chinese women with both chinese and western men, just as there are certainly some western women with both western and chinese men.

    anyway – hope this contributes to the debate and gives everyone something more to think about.

  25. I think foreign men can satisfy chinese girls better. that’s one of the most important reasons.

  26. Why bother with this post if you just completely dodged the controversy?

    I think you just wrote some ‘tautologies’ that people can’t object to.

    Saying ‘Discrimination is Bad’ is just like claiming ‘World Peace is Good’, ‘Murder is Bad’.

    These are universally agreed statements (among people who claimed they’re liberal-minded), so there’s no insight offered by repeating them.

    I don’t think there’s an ‘objective’ view on this issue.

    Any commenter most likely belongs to one of the following group:

    1. Non-Chinese guys (including ABCs (and XBCs for that matter)), but interested in dating Chinese girls

    2. Chinese guys

    3. Shanghainese girls

    4. Non-Shanghainese, but Chinese girls

    And I’d say one’s opinion depends on his/her group.

    Of course this list is not extensive. But non-Chinese girls, and non-Chinese guys not interested in dating Chinese girls wouldn’t even bother to read this post.

    For the record, I’m a Chinese guy (although I’m not a Mainlander).

    So naturally I agree with Yanqing Chen.

  27. Nick: Sorry that you took exception to my remarks. I agree with most of your comments and since you made two posts, I will come back and attempt to clarify.

    For the record I am half of a “mixed couple”. I was married to a Shanghainese woman ten years ago today and we have had a happy life. She is a few years younger than me but not decades younger. She doesn’t look like Gong Li or Zhang Ziyi but when she smiles at me as we meet after a day apart, I think she is beautiful. But we don’t look like Beauty and the Beast. We both have Bachelor’s degrees. I flatter myself that I am similar to the western husbands described here by Ben as “highly intelligent and caring as well as interested in other cultures”.

    But what I was seeing outside the Portman was couple after couple where the guy was 30 or more years older than the woman, with a male/female mass ratio of 3:1 or greater. It just had “Anna Nicole Smith” written all over it. I found it commercial and disturbing.

    Of course I wouldn’t be rude to these couples or sneer at them in the street. But I do have a negative opinion about them and I shared it here. Maybe we’ll just have to agree to disagree?

  28. Ha! That “mass ratio” comment made my day – hint, don’t chuckle this loudly at work – spoken like an engineer.

    Those “jeep girls” chase wealthy Chinese men as well, though.

  29. Hey Shrek,

    foreigners refer to anyone who is not chinese in the context of china…not ‘westerners’…not ‘white skin’…it has got nothing to do with skin…an ABC or so they called is also a foreigner…

  30. Is Taiwan a country?

    -YES. It is a country in its own right by any other definition that isn’t chinese (I mean China-ish)

  31. Just feeling sad for the chinese who knows almost nothing of the outside world,

    except from the manipulated input that China CCTV can provide.

    To be true, if an old foreign guy meets a young chinese girl, it is most likely that SHE finds HIM,

    and usually in a bar. Not in Carrefour or in the subway.

    And as a “bar girl” she is possibly willing to go to extremes to get money, even marriage.

    These are the stereotypes who passes by Starbucks on Nanjing Dong Lu.

    Their relationship seldom lasts more than a few years.

    (I really hope that they don’t get a baby before they divorce, that’s a disaster.)

    Another thing – how about chinese girls who works in japanese bars in China ?

    Most people in China do not like the japanese, but anyway, chinese girls do want to work “under” them…

    By the way, my neighbour is a japanese man married to a chinese woman !

    Things are not only black and white…

  32. I agree with Ronglimeng about outside Portman – there are always a crazy number of old man / young chinese girl couples walking past!

    Maybe its because the pharmacy there sells viagra?

  33. A little out of the scope here, but no, copy-viagra’s are sold everywhere, even in supermarket drugstores in the middle of China. No need to go to Nanjingdonglu for this drug.

    I haven’t tried, so I can’t say if it works or not.

  34. By the way, it can completely break the life of a chinese woman into pieces, if she is getting unintetionally pregnant.

    The education level of sex behaviour and protection is almost non-existing in China.

    And the officials deals with this matter in a very hard way.

    Guys, chinese and foreigners, going with a girl, even a prostitute takes some consideration from you.

    You are dealing with humans, not machines.

    You can ruin her life in an hour.

  35. According to statistics Shanghai, Shanghaiese marrying to foreign spouses was registered at 2960 couples during 2006.

    Among the foreign spouses, Japanese ranked the top and then Chinese from Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan. US and Australia ranked 3rd and 4th.

    Let the figures tell the story!

  36. “Is Taiwan a country?

    -YES. It is a country in its own right by any other definition that isn’t chinese (I mean China-ish)”

    Taiwan is de facto a country, but not de jure. For starters, the United States does not recognise Taiwan as a country – it agrees with “the Chinese position that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China”.

    “Just feeling sad for the chinese who knows almost nothing of the outside world,

    except from the manipulated input that China CCTV can provide.”

    It’s sad mainly because intelligent Chinese that wish to pursue further knowledge are limited in their quest. People here in America can, when they choose to (which is rare), find accurate information about any topic.

    However, for the majority of people, the ones that don’t give a **** about knowledge, it’s not sad at all. Chinese media present sanitised content, content that helps build social harmony. American news and pop culture portray little else but violence, unrest, crime, and hopelessness. It’s an endless purveyor of antisocial cynicism. It may be a “free” country, but I don’t have the freedom to take a stroll at night without risking being shot, stabbed, beaten, or worse. Criminals have more rights than victims here.

    I feel sad that many fellow Americans, who are supposed to be free, liberal thinkers, end up just as dogmatic as their communist counterparts. Here, we’re taught that the individual good is always superior to the greater good, even when individual good causes greater detriment. There is nothing absolute about that philosophy – it’s just a philosophy. Individual rights and group rights are more or less important based on subjective judgement. All that means is Chinese values are not conducive to American-style society, and American values are not conducive to Chinese-style society. One is not inherently superior to the other.

  37. “Is Taiwan a country?

    -YES. It is a country in its own right by any other definition that isn’t chinese (I mean China-ish)”

    Taiwan is de facto a country, but not de jure. For starters, the United States does not recognise Taiwan as a country – it agrees with “the Chinese position that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China”.

    Hi Ben,

    I do agree that Taiwan is regarded as a de facto country but bear in mind that USA is not the world and whatever USA feels belongs solely to the opinion of USA.

    Also, before George Bush became the President of USA, Clinton does regard Taiwan as a country subtlely… and till today USA is still selling weapons to Taiwan and does subtlely agree that Taiwan is a country though not politically… and if you were to ask most people on the street, guess what they will say about China and Taiwan?

    The reason why Bsuh does not want to public support Taiwan is because it does not want to anger Chian further coz it needs China’s help in peacing N. Korea out..

  38. Hey Carsten,

    the average chinese limited knowledge of the world has got nothing to do with how often they travel or where they have been to…some of my chinese classmates from China still think and behave like the chinese in china despite being in Australia for 5 years!!! Eg. becoming defensive when foreingers speak about china… being hostile to Falonggong practioners claiming these are people who have tarnished the reputation of china (CCP= China, China = chinese culture, race, language etc.)… love to use “guang xi” and believe that “we are chinese, we must be united” sort of thing

    I can’t handle their way of thinking… yes..they hate other asians esp japanese…

  39. “the average chinese limited knowledge of the world has got nothing to do with how often they travel or where they have been to…some of my chinese classmates from China still think and behave like the chinese in china despite being in Australia for 5 years!!! Eg. becoming defensive when foreingers speak about china… being hostile to Falonggong practioners claiming these are people who have tarnished the reputation of china (CCP= China, China = chinese culture, race, language etc.)… love to use “guang xi” and believe that “we are chinese, we must be united” sort of thing

    I can’t handle their way of thinking… yes..they hate other asians esp japanese…”

    Pretty annoying, ain’t it? I’m not sure where you’re at, but too bad a whole lot of people can’t handle Americans either. Though most American emigrants I’ve met are much more open-minded than Chinese ones.

  40. “The reason why Bsuh does not want to public support Taiwan is because it does not want to anger Chian further coz it needs China’s help in peacing N. Korea out..”

    The above quotation from the US government has been in place since 1978. Besides, North Korea still isn’t listening. Maybe China should invade them, if only for humour’s sake.

  41. Stephen, where is that statistics source ?

    Can you provide a link ?

    Taiwan – US – Bush etc. We are away from the subject.

    To continue these off road topics :

    US wants to defend Taiwan in case of a war – and recognize that it belongs to CCP – at the same time ????

    US – wake up and take a firm stand.

    Taiwan is like a flee between two nails.

    From a homepage I even can open in China, the history of Taiwan is written, and it is clear that Taiwan

    only fully belonged to mainland China for 7 (seven) years throughout the history.

    China sold Taiwan to the japanese (The Shimonoseiki agreement).

    How can anyone claim something that they’ve already sold ??

    Only reason to claim Taiwan (as I see it) is because the enemy (kuomintang) from the civil war ran away to that island.

    CCP wants a complete victory.

    The kindergarden-like statements from Beijing towards Taiwan is just ridicoulus.

    Even funny, sometimes.

    Now CCP has SO many money, believe it or not (they don’t give much to the people).

    So – the solution is – CCP can buy it back again !

    Then Taiwan will be a very rich province, and both countries

    can save lots of money on the defense budgets.

    But then Taiwan will not be a free country anymore…

    The best solution would be, if both countries were true and free democratic countries.

    Then the Taiwan resistance of joining with the maniland will fade away.

    We are waiting.

  42. should be discussed case by case…ha….

    my bf introduced me this place. he likes topics here. I think I like too.

    many appreciations to the owner here!

  43. carsten, the source is from friday edition of atnext.com, a newspaper from Hong Kong I believe is banned from China.

  44. Yes, you’re right Stephen, no access.

    Must be some terrible stuff !

    I try later, I have access through the phone modem to ATT.

    Anyway, it only counts marriages in China I guess.

    Many are married outside China (like me).

  45. carsten, for your interest, the article also mentioned during the same period last year, Shanghai also recorded 337 cases of divorce involved foreign spouses, among the top is Canadian and then Japanese. The main reason of divorce is the separation of the couples between two countries.

  46. I don’t think it is all Shanghainese girl that is marrying the foreigners. How about it is a trend started from oversea, such as USA. Since the 60’s, the GI with the Vietnam girls? In 90’s, it is almost like a fashion statement to have a Wall Street Banker type walk around with an Asian girl. There are genuine love involve too, I am not discounting the fact that there are girls in China who married foreigners for a ticket out of China, or they think they are getting out of proverty. The grass is always greener on the other side. I meet a few of these girls here. One in particular, she was actually from Beijing, she married a Born-Again Christian from Nebraska, she is miserable. She used to work in a TV station in Beijing, and now, she is living in rural America, missing all her shopping, and friends. I did not ask how she meet her husband, but I have a feeling that she meet him through one of those mail order bride thing. So, who is suffering the most in these case? They both do, he can not satisfy her material demand, she felt like she was cheated out of a good life. To each of their own, no one should make judgement about other people’s choices, right?

  47. Hi everyone,

    just to continue with the already offtopic topic (Taiwan)..

    Taiwan was indeed sold to Japan way before there was even “China” as we know it today (irregardless of PRC or ROC). Therefore when Japan retreated its military force on Taiwan and denounced its colonial power/ownership (whatever it is called…) it by default declared Taiwan as an Independent nation. That happened at the same time when KMT shifted (mind you, i used the word “shift, not “escape”) to Taiwan, it is a sovereignity alknowledged by Japan who “owned” Taiwan. If there is a rightful seller, buyer and benefician, then who is China to calim something they have already sold?

  48. I don’t know whether its true, but I assume there are more shanghainese girls marrying foreign men, then there are shanhainese men marrying foreign women because there are more foreign men working in in Shanghai than there are foreign women?

    I would have hated saying all that in a conversation!

  49. an unspoken fact here….. how many of these beautiful and family oriented ladies give a second thought to the fact that the 40 year old men are primarily fathers and distracted husbands…… its a fact of life but shouldnt there be some protection for these girls who simply dont realise that divorce is like a going to the dentist for many of these western men?

    as for the wives, ex wives and children of these chaps …. well that cant be easy either.

    Dont think I am condeming the men either … mid life crisis happens everywhere but the combination of availbility, willingness, “exotic” and seemingly compliant must make these ladies most desirable for men who are wondering about their own mortality and verility.

    for every case of true love….. good luck and congratulations

    for the rest …. good luck

    twinkle

  50. Wow… I’ve never heard so much racist garbage… I am Australian-born and married my Shanghainese wife after a very long courtship. We met as colleagues in the same multi-national company for which we both worked. Both very successful professionals that developed a relationship over time. We love each other deeply and cherish every day that we are together.

    After spending time living and working in both China and Australia, we have now relocated to Singapore and are expecting our first child in September!!!

    Who cares where I grew up?? Who cares where my wife was raised?? Who cares anything about our cultural differences?? These are the exciting things that make our life challenging and well-worth living…

    In an age of globalization, it’s time some people on this site grew up and started worrying about the important things in life!!

  51. There is no quick answer to the question Whether Shanghainese girls marrying foreigners is right or wrong. It just depends whether it is a true love?

  52. Marrying a Chinese girl, even if shes not from Shanghai .. I am a person whom very much loves a chinese girl. I note (dancingdots) in this blog stating a lass from China married a man from Nebraska USA … He states as follows (he can not satisfy her material demand) What is the demand in material marraige for her? I believe that love alone should be the key to her answer .. Perhaps the guy is a jurk, who knows. However in the case of my love for my friend in Xi’an China whom has spent much time in this country, Australia … with me. I am finding these two things … I am being discriminated by her mother mostly in that because I have been married before and have a daugter that I am not considered a good mate. The other of course is a monetary issue … Her being only child and not being a son is expected to provide much for her parents. Hey nothing wrong with that in most respects … However as a strong and independant man I would only be to happy to provide for the families needs. The discrimination issue seems that mother would have no face if daughter married me … Where does one turn when a family discriminates with cultural issues… Good enough to send daughter to this country for education and to earn a better income, then pressures her to suppress her feelings of her heart … Then I find I am being victimised now even by her heart because she has to live basically a double identity. I am a very nice person and if the family could bother to know me as the daughter has said .. The mother threatens the daughter psychologically … I’m lost for the right answers … Sure I wish to go there and meet the parents … It seems though when one is being pressured there by family, that because of the cultural upbringing, dictatorship … political differences … Do as I say child … Perhaps I should stand in a square and be shot down by someone … issues which are not found on internet in China … I dare not even send a political history email to my love. Simply because it would likely be detramental to her health, as she has plainly said we are being watched and even our business emails are censored and it seems many know what we do … Help … What I do know is that my lady would never starve and would always be warm and loved.

  53. I think this blog is great WANGJIANSHUO and I also note > Posted by: Ronglimeng on March 21, 2007 09:29 AM Well, I married a Shanghainese girl. He also says > However, at least in terms of economics and romance, China is a free country, so what are you going to do? Is it truely … I put it to you that many do not consider that true love is allowed and I recently had conversation with other in China about how a businessman there was being divorced by his wife. He did not wish this and so through connections had a court order his wife to stay … I really have thought always many good things about the chinese people, especially what my father had told me of his good experiences with them as sometime allies to us during the second world war. I find much has to do with financial issues in China and rules of engagement in business. My lady tells me of business meetings and the after meetings goings on and then these men can go home to their wives and it is accepted that is the way it is … I have looked at some of the cultural meeting sites and I am surprised that there are so many beautiful divorced women whom basically state about their past of the perhaps inhumane way they are treated. My friend was just in kunming and she travelled to other areas. She was saying to me that all the women went to work and the men stayed home … Does anyone have anything to say about these things?

  54. Discrimination exists everywhere… it is not a culture which discriminates, but individuals. I too have a child from a previous marriage. My Shanghainese wife’s family (parents & extended family) have accepted me unconditionally as one of their own, regardless of my heritage, past history or any other reasons. I love them and they love me (and my son from my previous marriage)… the attitudes you describe Ron (of your lady’s mother) are not the norm in westernized China today, in fact my vast experience would tell me these ideals are the minority.

    Furthermore, people who partake in these after-meeting ‘going’s on’ (as you put it) do not deserve a loving wife’s dedication and commitment… once again, it is not limited to a culture or race – my own sister can tell you of many similar experiences of her current husband’s ‘after-meeting goings-on’… she is Australian and so his her husband – this type of activity should be despised for what it is – and it is rife in many societies, not just China. In fact, even with the westernization of many parts of China, the divorce rate in Australia (between Australian-born couples) is still exponentially higher than that of any province of China.

  55. I guess this is about English culture, what I have seen from these articl. Chinese girls I guess they are brainwashed by foreign cultures and ofcourse they have bad experience with chinese guys thus they want to change. In terms of old man, well this is sad but may be they have no choice.

  56. Dawson – ‘English’ culture?? I read this blog as ‘westerners’ – I’m from Australia (not England)… ‘brainwashed by foreign cultures’?? I think that belittles ladies – all people can think for themselves… ‘they want to change’?? Change what?? The comments here are still so very racist!! I repeat – it doesn’t matter where you were born or raised – love is love and has nothing to do with cultures or borders…

  57. hehe…funny topic..

    I just wonder: Why the people who stand out to complain that” Shanghai women just for money” are ALWAYS CHINESE MEN?

    well, lets just suppose that “SH girls are just for money”, but all the SH guys never want money? in the SAME cities, only “most girls want money” but “guys dont”?! anyone with a brain would take it for granted?

    Chinese men…just tell out whats you really think about? jealous or unbalanced feeling inside… Just as—if you could choose a prettier woman then you wont choose an ugly one if with same other considitons. for sure——-We(shanghai girls) are same: why we wanna choose poor, tortured, unbalenced, selfish, and not-strong Chinese man???

    Well, if most Chinese always took these bad minds instead of make better and openminded of yourselves, you will never attract west women and will lose more and more your woman here!

  58. Hoho – well said, Jiang

  59. Well… I was worried about racism – never did I realize how racist the society I now live in is… every day as we move about Singapore, the assumption is made by many people that my wife is Singapore Chinese – this brings stares, sneers and even outright obvious hatred toward me. Why?? I live in this country because I was invited – there were no people with the skills, talent, education and experience to do the job I do. So I am here to help this country – how can people be so narrow-minded??

  60. Get over this AussiePB, if you are so happy with your wife then just let it be…why are you wailing and complaining so much?

    I am Singaporean and matter of factly people in Singapore can tell China Chinese apart from the Singapore Chinese. It is very easy to differentiate them really (if you are a local…. like how Japanese can very easily tell Koreans/ Chinese apart from Japanese but not Australians like you) and people look at you NOT because they assume she is a Singaporean but perhaps more because she is from China and if you really are in Singapore then you know the reputation of China’s women. I’m sure you have heard of geylang, study mama, “chinese overseas student” and massage parlour?

    I don’t want to stereotype but my great-granparents’ marriage were broken by a women from China, the same goes from my uncle’s marriage and then my godparents’…

    Tell me why are there so many China women who are marrying foreign guys they have only met a couple of times or whom they have known for less than a year? Why are them marrying guys more than 2 times their age? I don’t believe it is love but then of course you can choose to believe otherwise.

    You have chosen to love a Shanghai women but similarly others have choosen NOT to love them so thats quite fair really.

    Get over this topic. If you want to harp on this one then I’m going to start on the stolen generation of Australia.

  61. To Jiang and AussiePB:

    First of all I am not a racist. I have had chinese boyfriends and ironically my last boyfriend was a China-Shanghai born.

    People in Japan/ HK/ Singapore/ USA/ Australia (for USA and Aust, I only mean the Asian population because non-Asians cannot tell Asians apart) where I have lived in were also more “ok” with the chinese men from SH as opposed to the SH girls. Tell me why?????

    At Sydney University where I go to, there are so many Shanghai women prostituting themselves for free as long as you are white or other Asians (non-chinese)!! I ask 3 girls from Shanghai why they like whites and Japanese so much and they told me this, “in china, it is a privilege to date these people and people respect you if your husband is non-chinese”. One of those girls even went as far to tell me how HER MOTHER told her “since you are going overseas and leaving China, you must leave for good, you must marry well, you MUST DEFINITELY marry into a rich family (“jia ru hao men”) and best of all marry a foreigner who is rich so we can all migrate”….

    I nearly faint when I heard that…..then she finished off our conversation with “zai zhong guo, sheng nu er shi bu kun ben de” (“in china its never poor business if you bear daughters”

  62. Elaine – I beg to differ – you are very racist… stereotyping any race is wrong – and you are doing a great job of it!! I have german ancestors – does this mean I had anything to do with the 2nd-world war?… your arguments are absolutely ridiculous!! I offer you to come and walk in my shoes for a day and see how many people stare and sneer – I am kind to everyone I meet, and have many Singaporean close friends… they agree with the fact that some people with narrow-minded views (like yourself) are very racist toward chinese people (and other races). I re-emphasise, I was invited here and I wish to contribute to your society – why do some people behave in these archaic ways? I just would like to be accepted. It’s time to move forward – we live in an era of globalization.

    Finally, my wife is mistaken as Singaporean often – you must be very clever to be able to distinguish… oh, and ‘stolen generation’?? – now you are really attempting to strike low with discrimitive overtones – my grandmother is an aborigine… so for you to even mention this topic not only insults me as a person but also my heritage, it further portrays your ignorance, and you should feel extremely embarrassed!! Good luck in your life – I sincerely hope that God directs you away from the racism and hatred that is so embedded in your psyche… :D

  63. AussieBP: Oh and now you are trying to crash me with your arborigine heritage and accuse me being racist because I mentioned the stolen generation? I don’t understand how I insulted “your heritage” by the mere mention of the stolen generation?? If there is anyone who insulted you then your first target is John Howard and the rest of the people in parliament who refuse to return the rights of the land to the aborigines

    Now, now why are you so sensitive to the German’s role in WW2. I did not mention anything about WW2 and FOI, I have NEVER EVER felt whatever that has happened in the WW2 has anything to do with Germany and Japan. Don’t put words in my mouth!

    Lastly, when did I stereotype anyone? If I did then I would very well steer myself clear of all Chinese but no my one of my very best friend is from China Dalian and the other from Fiji. My last BF was born in China and Shanghai – the place you claimed me to be racist against.

    PS: Check up the meaning of racism bah…. I am too in love with some aspect of china and its place to be called a racist. The real racist here..hem…can you explain why some chinese students come to australia and called “white people” white ghost and people with more tan skin “hei gui”. I have many examples regarding that…i’m sure your chinese wife must have told you how she hated Indians? If shes not like that then God bless…

  64. AussiePB: Have you ever wondered why there was a “White Australia” and Pauline Hanson and One Nation??? And why are all Asians considered “Chinese” in Australia (they automaticaly assume you are chinese if you are “yellow”) and why aren’t Indians/ Sri Lankans etc. considered Asians in the west? Who are the ones putting people into categories based on skin colour? Why are some of the “non-whites” who speak perfect English being discriminated in Australia because they (whites) don’t think they can speak English? My best friend has been in Australia since she was 2 and never mind tha fact that she scored full marks for her 4 unit English at HSC, she is still constantly being asked if she “understands English” at school and outside.

    This is a bit off the track but I just want you to know that Australia is not a racism-free country so don’t give me crap. Should I label you a racist because of the many racist Australians I have met? I don’t think so because you are you and I don’t know you. I didn’t label you and who gave you the right to label me?

  65. AussiePB: Have you ever wondered why there was a “White Australia” and Pauline Hanson and One Nation??? And why are all Asians considered “Chinese” in Australia (they automatically assume you are chinese if you are “yellow”) and why aren’t Indians/ Sri Lankans etc. considered Asians in the west? Who are the ones putting people into categories based on skin colour? Why are some of the “non-whites” who speak perfect English being discriminated in Australia because they (whites) don’t think they can speak English? My best friend has been in Australia since she was 2 and never mind tha fact that she scored full marks for her 4 unit English at HSC, she is still constantly being asked if she “understands English” at school and outside.

    This is a bit off the track but I just want you to know that Australia is not a racism-free country so don’t give me crap. Should I label you a racist because of the many racist Australians I have met? I don’t think so because you are you and I don’t know you. I didn’t label you and who gave you the right to label me?

  66. AussiePB: Have you ever wondered why there was a “White Australia” and Pauline Hanson and One Nation??? And why are all Asians considered “Chinese” in Australia (they automatically assume you are chinese if you are “yellow”) and why aren’t Indians/ Sri Lankans etc. considered Asians in the west? Who are the ones putting people into categories based on skin colour? Why are some of the “non-whites” who speak perfect English being discriminated in Australia because they (whites) don’t think they can speak English? My best friend has been in Australia since she was 2 and never mind tha fact that she scored full marks for her 4 unit English at HSC, she is still constantly being asked if she “understands English” at school and outside.

    This is a bit off the track but I just want you to know that Australia is not a racism-free country so don’t give me crap. Should I label you a racist because of the many racist Australians I have met? I don’t think so because you are you and I don’t know you. I didn’t label you and who gave you the right to label me?

  67. Elaine: I only have a few more things to say on this topic, because you obviously have some very deep-seeded issues with different races and nationalities, and I certainly did not want to start an ‘argument’ on this blog. I was just stating my position and experiences before you ‘attacked’ me. I beg that you take the time to clearly and carefully read what I have to say before making any further assumptions.

    Firstly:

    racism (noun)

    1. Hatred, rivalry or bad feeling between races.

    2. Belief in the inherent superiority of a particular race or races over others, usually with the implication of a right to be dominant.

    3. Discriminatory treatment based on such a belief.

    Derivative: racist (noun, adj)

    Under Australian racial vilification laws (where you reside) this also covers discrimination and/or generalizations or stereotyping based upon people’s beliefs, appearances or racial background… specifically, although racism exists everywhere, these type of generalizations are considered ‘criminal’ in certain arenas.

    Now, I quote just a few of your many supposedly ‘non-racist’ comments…

    “Japanese can very easily tell Koreans/ Chinese apart from Japanese but not Australians like you” ; “you know the reputation of China’s women. I’m sure you have heard of geylang, study mama, “chinese overseas student” and massage parlour?” ; “I don’t want to stereotype but” ; “so many China women…” ; “because non-Asians cannot tell Asians apart” ; “so many Shanghai women prostituting themselves for free” ; “all Asians considered “Chinese” in Australia (they automatically assume you are chinese if you are “yellow”)” ; “”non-whites” who speak perfect English being discriminated in Australia because they (whites) don’t think they can speak English”… do I need to continue??

    I would never once be ignorant enough to consider that racism and discrimination did not exist in nearly every country in the world (Australia included). In fact, I know some unfortunate people personally in my home country that do hold a similar sort of hatred… I feel sorry and pray for these individuals…

    Since you seem to know so much about the ‘One Nation’ party, you would obviously be aware that Pauline Hanson was supported by the smallest of minorities, and in no way represented the feelings nor actions of mainstream Australia (in fact they did not even have the support to ‘legally’ form a party). In fact, quite the contrary – but I’m sure you would not make statements around a ‘white australia’ without first knowing the full facts. Please feel free to study up on this a little. This also applies to your statements on Australian aboriginal history – feel free to read some more.

    I made the comment around the 2nd world war to highlight the type of generalizations you were making, and how ridiculous they seemed to me – this obviously went over your head – my sincere apologies for your misunderstanding.

    Finally, be assured I did not call you a racist for the comments you made in relation to the ‘stolen generation’ or against Shanghai (as you incorrectly interpreted), rather for all the generalizations you were making in regards to all races… the use of language such as ‘white’, ‘non-white’, ‘yellow’, ‘they’, ‘them’ etc, etc is not acceptable to me (nor is the suggestion that because my wife is chinese, she would have a ‘reputation’ in Singapore for prostitution – this is what offended me the most from your statements, and is perhaps the crux of my initial statement that prompted your response), however as I have continually pointed out I am aware that this type of racism exists everywhere, and in a world of ‘free speech’ I respect everyone’s right to have their say. This includes the comments you have made.

    The colour of one’s skin, the cultural background or the history of a country should be irrelevant when it comes to respect for the individual…

    For the record, my Chinese wife and I are extremely happy with the mix of our cultures, our lives together and are excited about the upcoming birth of our child. Generally, we have settled into Singapore quite well and are better adapting to life here every day… and my wife, like me, loves every person for who they are, and any of the differences you mention are ‘invisible’ to her – including all nationalities.

    Thankyou kindly for letting me know your thoughts, Elaine, and as previously suggested, I offer my best wishes that you will gather guidance and wisdom over coming years, so that you might finally let go of some of the baggage that you have obviously collected from a very young age.

    Warmest Regards…. remember “love thy neighbour”…

  68. AussiePB:

    I also have no wish to keep going on about this topic and neither did I say that racism did not exist either in Singapore or Australia. Your very “correct” interpretation of my words have made me decided to “retaliate” to what you have said which is why we are talking about this issue now.

    In terms of your definition of racism which I deeply appreciate, I want to draw your attention to that fact that race is the crux of racism and on which people formed an idea or discriminatory beliefs on. Here, I mentioned nothing about any race being inferior or superior to another – I have no idea how you concluded that I feel Singaporeans are superior.

    The words “white”/ “yellow” and “non-whites” were in inverted commas because I obviously don’t agree with the usage of these words as they were coined. I did not invented them and these were words I see in Australian textbooks. Anyway, before you started harping on I am now “attacking” Australia, I wish to state first of all I see no colour and again I have had chinese exs and my best friend was born in China. Personally I hate that word ‘coloured” more than anyone because I am “coloured” from having Asian (South/ Southeast/ East) and European (West and South) blood.

    Next, you don’t know my background and if you want to focus on the issue of race here then unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I am part Chinese and I don’t hate myself.

    Now lets review what you have said in your first posting that made me reacted the way I did. In your post on the 23 of June at 5.37PM you said:

    “Well… I was worried about racism – never did I realize how racist the society I now live in is… every day as we move about Singapore, the assumption is made by many people that my wife is Singapore Chinese – this brings stares, sneers and even outright obvious hatred toward me. Why?? I live in this country because I was invited – there were no people with the skills, talent, education and experience to do the job I do. So I am here to help this country – how can people be so narrow-minded??”

    Do I have to further explain why I think you are more racist than I am now? Huh? You have made EXTREMMELY derogarative comments about the place I was born in.

    You called my society a “racist society”, “I was invited to work here” (you made yourself sound like a VIP, superiority huh??) and how “they have no talent and skills” (damm right!)

    Last of all, I’m sure you remember calling us “narrow-minded” and “ought to be embarrassed” when I did not make any value judgement about you despite the fact that I was assumed I speak no English and therefore is a stupid asshole from Asia at Australia’s oldest university.

    Actions speak louder than words and your words haven’t been kind from start so I wonder how “thou shalt love thy neighbour” in such a situation!

  69. AussiePB:

    I also have no wish to keep going on about this topic and neither did I say that racism did not exist either in Singapore or Australia. Your very “correct” interpretation of my words have made me decided to “retaliate” to what you have said which is why we are talking about this issue now.

    In terms of your definition of racism which I deeply appreciate, I want to draw your attention to that fact that race is the crux of racism and on which people formed an idea or discriminatory beliefs on. Here, I mentioned nothing about any race being inferior or superior to another – I have no idea how you concluded that I feel Singaporeans are superior.

    The words “white”/ “yellow” and “non-whites” were in inverted commas because I obviously don’t agree with the usage of these words as they were coined. I did not invented them and these were words I see in Australian textbooks. Anyway, before you started harping on I am now “attacking” Australia, I wish to state first of all I see no colour and again I have had chinese exs and my best friend was born in China. Personally I hate that word ‘coloured” more than anyone because I am “coloured” from having Asian (South/ Southeast/ East) and European (West and South) blood.

    Next, you don’t know my background and if you want to focus on the issue of race here then unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I am part Chinese and I don’t hate myself.

    Now lets review what you have said in your first posting that made me reacted the way I did. In your post on the 23 of June at 5.37PM you said:

    “Well… I was worried about racism – never did I realize how racist the society I now live in is… every day as we move about Singapore, the assumption is made by many people that my wife is Singapore Chinese – this brings stares, sneers and even outright obvious hatred toward me. Why?? I live in this country because I was invited – there were no people with the skills, talent, education and experience to do the job I do. So I am here to help this country – how can people be so narrow-minded??”

    Do I have to further explain why I think you are more racist than I am now? Huh? You have made EXTREMMELY derogarative comments about the place I was born in.

    You called my society a “racist society”, “I was invited to work here” (you made yourself sound like a VIP, superiority huh??) and how “they have no talent and skills” (damm right!)

    Last of all, I’m sure you remember calling us “narrow-minded” and “ought to be embarrassed” when I did not make any value judgement about you despite the fact that I was assumed I speak no English and therefore is a stupid asshole from Asia at Australia’s oldest university.

    Actions speak louder than words and your words haven’t been kind from start so I wonder how “thou shalt love thy neighbour” in such a situation!

    PS: The above is my post too.

  70. To AussiePB:

    Anyway enjoy your baby. (That’s supposed to be taken as a congrtulation/ well wishes and nothing racist.)

  71. My boyfriend went to Shanghai and “fell in love” with a fuckin whore!!! We were together for a long time and about to be married. They met at work and he cheated on me 5 days after going to Shanghai!!! Ladies, DO NOT let a man EVER go to Shanghai by themselves, no matter how much you trust them!!!! They are ruthless over there, they know how to play the game and get what they want. Whores all of them!!! They have only known each other less than two months, lived together less than two weeks, and now are trying to have a baby. its the only thing she can have to really reel in the man. Hey whore, have you heard of karma? You knew we were to be married and still go after my man. Yea so we had problems and probably never meant to be togther. But a person like a whore, with no morals or a soul or even a concience will get it at the end. And i will be there laughing…….

  72. To Skye: perhaps it’s your karma coming back to you. With that attitude, maybe he’s better off to piss you off and meet a ‘real’ refined lady instead of a guttermouth like you! You deserve what you get.

  73. As an American married to a Chinese while living in Shenzhen I have observed many Chinese women who ask if I have friends interested in marriage. The bottom line is money. If you are willing to never have a good converstaion on the things that are important to you, If you are willing to spend for a poorly built apartment in a very dirty town the same as an ocean beach house in the USA and if you are willing to spend, spend spend while getting very little in return then Chinese women are the way to go. As for my poor sap brother in law Martin, also an American but unable to stay because of work, Yes your wife is having sex with lots of men in the Apartment you are paying for and she is even enteraining on you buck. I love my wife, but if I had to do it all over again,—-NEVER

  74. Hi Harry,

    you don’t know the relationship between Skye so how could you make such an irresponsible judgement? Have you ever experienced some of these women from china (I’m not saying all but from observations, I would say MOST)? Have you ever seen families broke up because of chinese women? Have you ever gone thru such pain? If no, then you jolly well shut the f**k up! I sympathise with you if you are a chinese and are trying to protect “your” women or yourself but no, i have seen too many rutheless women like what skye experienced to regret what I have said.

    With most chinese women i have seen overseas, love means nothing. Communication means nothing, trust means nothing and kindness means nothing. All that matters is money and the foreign passport. Its all the more better if you happen to be a “true blonde” so they could “showcase” you to their family, friends and neighbours.

    I regret to say that within my own family, 3 or 4 were broken up by chinese women and straight after they received their PR status, they would ask for a divorce and “fetch” their adulterer from china to live in “their” new country.

    BTW, skye, I personally know a freind’s friend from Germany who was already engaged when he went to china. Witin 2 months he married a chinese women because this women claimed she was pregnant with “his” baby…yeah right who knows who are the other foreigners she might have slept with since they met in a KTV and have sex the first time they met. I know this guy is a trash but that women is definitely a whore

  75. Dear Lucius – you are a brainless, dimwitted little prick! If you are saying (from your observations) that most chinese women are whores, then I’d like to meet with you to see if you have the courage to say it to my face. My partner is chinese, I am western. I’ve many other friends in inter-racial relationships and we socialize together regularly. Some of my friends are chinese boys with western wives. You call chinese women whores, then you are talking about my partner – I really want to meet you and we can talk about this face-to-face! But I think you probably wouldn’t have the guts – or maybe you cannot get a partner and that is your problem. Maybe you are gay?

    I can introduce you to a whore. My ex-wife. And guess what, she is western. I can’t even count the number of affairs she had while we were married.

    So before you tell anyone to ‘shut the f**k up’, pull your little head in and think before you speak or write. Don’t hide behind a blog site, come and meet with me. I want to talk to you up close about what you have called my wife. What is your home address?

  76. Chinese women? No way – my husband left me for a Singapore whore!

  77. To AussiePB :

    Thanks for your kind opinions and thoughts of us Chinese women, or especially Shanghai women…I wish you and your wife will be always enjoying a good marrage and relationship…

    To Skye :

    Its not only Chinese women’s falt…You yourself lost attraction to that man, and this man “cheated you”, this man” wanna have baby with another lady”…so why not call your ex-man FUCKING WHOLE? he betrayed you and love another woman, isnt that HIS fault???

    Well..by the way, i can understand your feeling but i really feel sorry for your dirty mouth anyway.

    To Randal :

    Sorry to hear that…and sorry to say there are really some people in China wanna move to USA…and i feel sorry for all these people…but as you know,as I often said: China is super big, as big as the whole Europe , much bigger than USA…you cannot list some individuals to stand the whole Chinese, as you know in EU, of coz the Denmark poeple are different from Greek… China has been forbidden too long..and people only have to IMAGINE about the world outside sometimes…they just imagined the outside worlld too good before they really went there sometimes.

    by the way, best wish for your wife and you…

    Well, as a Shanghai woman/ Chinese woman/Chinese, im a bit lucky that i have visited more than 20 countries around the world and have friends everywhere..my salary is no less than the average level in EU or USA,…so im not great needs for money or passport.

    I only wanna say, everywhere there are good or bad people…I cannot say Chinese women are all good but at least no worse than in your own country, becoz anyway, Chinese are more traditional if compared to some developed country(Well thats probably some people dont think so, becoz you only meet a definete parts of them…if you can speak fleunt Chinese and have lots of local non-speaking friends, i think you would agree with me.)

    On the other side, same as what you complain on the forum, as i know on the other Chinese forums, some Chinese also complain about so called”white” people…..and in some Chinese thoughts: White people are all butterflied, and have no attitude of family, selfish…etc———-thats what i dont agree, either.

    Same as my opinion here: i dont think all Chinese are bad, also i dont agree some Chinese think that foreigners are all not worth trusting… I myself have met lots of friends who are loyal, nice, and easy-going…and i also have a nice boyfriend currently—he is a swiss..

    Just wanna express : misunderstanding here and there, and hope we can find a way to understand each other better instead of making an extreme conclusion like this.

    So Cheers up everyone..

  78. For those Western women who have lost husbands to this phenomenon–older western guys with young Chinese women–it does not make it easy at home. We are left to clean up the messes with the left-behind children and “before” life.

    My X made his first trip to China in April of 2004. He became involved with a 23 year old (he was 50) by December of that year (we had been married 24 years at that time). We separated by the next November. He moved to China by the next June. Our divorce just became final. And now a new 29 year old is currently getting her passport to come west. The amount of money spent on these young Chinese women (the number of “friends” continues to climb) has been staggering.

    I have met numerous X-wives with this same story. I know that there are “true” loves out there, but from where I sit, it is hard not to generalize. Oh, and BTW, all of these girls are from Shanghai.

  79. I see this topic is getting much air-play again… I feel dreadfully sorry for any families that break up due to infidelity – it happened to me also some years ago – and it took me many years to trust any women again. Broken heart caused by a western woman! Finally I met the love of my life and my soul-mate in Shanghai – my colleague. Once again, it doesn’t matter where people are from, and generalizations are wrong under any circumstances.

    People that leave comments on this forum stating the negative about any race (especially chinese) should understand the magnitude of their generalization, and should look further than their own backyard. Even if there are 20 disgruntled people on this forum, against the population of China (1.4bln) – and given the ratio of men to women 106.3 to 100, then your generalizations are based on a percentage of 0.00000295% (this even takes out the male equation – like we’re just assuming that chinese men don’t marry western women, which clearly isn’t the case). Does anyone know the odds of getting struck by lightning or winning the gold lotto? I’d rather put my money on these events!!

    Once again, I feel sorry for any people from broken families – I can empathize because I’ve been there. Please take the issues you face and the hurt you feel away from a racial debate… we now live in 2007, not the 1950’s…

    :D everyone should learn to respect one another’s differences – every week I travel to a different country (at least one, sometime two or three) as part of my job, and am exposed to quite a range of cultures and behaviours (and often experience racism against myself, being the ‘alien’)… it’s not a nice feeling to say the least. However, the more I travel, the more I come to appreciate and embrace the differences… I encourage people on this forum to try and travel as much as possible, and interact with different cultures (even in your home country) for continued personal development and enlightenment…

    Take care everybody – life is very delivate and very short!!

  80. AussiePB, thanks for your wonderful explanation about how to value differences, and why generalization is often wrong. I completely agree with you that travel helps people to see this world in a more complete manner.

    Thanks for joining the discussion. I am happy to have you in the forum.

  81. I just want to throw in a new element here. I think we should stop blaming everything on the Shanghainese. It’s not only them. In my experience I think its Chinese girls as a whole that are the problem. This didn’t just originate from the Chinese thats for sure. It came from Disney, Superman, James Bond, Prison Break and Brad Pitt movies. A constant bombardment of western movies where white men are the hero. Never a black man, never a Chinese, Never an Indian man the hero.(Eventhough more than 30% of the population now are monorities in America) 99% white. It’s no wonder why they don’t want their own men.

    So they want to marry you for money? So you expect to get free pun tang pie and not pay the price? In the 90’s foriegners used to get laid for free. Now the women here have evolved. They have found out that many of the foriegners have a wife and children at home. So there is no commitment beside money and pun tang. If the women here were treated right in the first place then you probaly wouldn’t be having this problem now. Broken hearts lead to scorn and greediness.

    Another point is I find Chinese women and men to be the most racist and stereotypical of people in the world. I mean you’ll have a chosen few like Jian Shuo Wang or my girlfriend that have minds in their heads, but for the most part the Chinese are racist…against their own, against Indians, and especially against blacks .

    You can ask almost any Chinese about the feeling against blacks and Indians and 80% of the time it will turn out to be negative. On the other hand they feel that Japanese are racist against them and look down upon them; but many of them do the same thing to blacks and Indians. So do on to others as you would want others to do on to you.

    China lacks an identity and a history. I mean they have over 5000 years of history but most can hardly remember what happend the last twenty years. So of course you are going to have a trend of money grubbing women who love white men because thats the trend now. A handsome blue eyed fantasy prince. Just like 20 years ago the trend was to demonstrate on the square in Beijing, and 30 years ago the trend was to beat up their teachers and burn parts of their history, and 40 years ago to lie about how much food they had(Great leap forward). They are sick of being exploited and now have found a way out…the foriegner.

    Some just do it to show off. Like my girlfriend who just wants to show me off to her other friends “oh look I have a foriegner” “Ohh look im kissing a black man on the #1 subway so that everybody can see. I’m so rebelled, I’m so refined, I’m so fashionable”. I hate it.

    Eventhough Chinese are some of the most racist in the world they are also some of the most accepting and nice people that I have come to meet. You just have to get lucky and meet the right one. I’m proud to be none white because its easier in China to find if people respect you for who you are and not what they can get out of you.

  82. Well. Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts on this topic. This thread is becoming more and more interesting, and I saw a lot of serious comments here. Keep them coming!

    I am also happy that no matter what point-of-view people have (and they are completely different from person to person!), we still keep it a peaceful and thoughtful discussion. I really like it. Thanks for keeping the conversation going and paid effort to understand others.

  83. I see so much anger in this thread. Part of it perhaps comes from observations that some

    – Chinese look down on its own people in favor of foreigners

    – Foreigners abuse their perceived “superiority”

    These things may happen less and less as China becomes richer and its people more confident. See the 2008 Olympics in Beijing

  84. my name is James a liberian living in guinea conakry, iam looking for a girl to marriage. Can you help me

  85. Nationalism, Xenophobia, and Racism have deep roots in China. If it isn’t outright Japanese bashing, then this kind of silly topic is used to stir up emotions and create hatred towards Jews…oops I meant Laowai…oops I meant waideren…oops I meant anyone not Chinese.

    Racism is Racism. Chinese people display the same Racist tendencies as other Races.

    Instead of confronting the problem intellectually, polarising questions like these are posed which are intended to solicit an emotional response which will likely be negative and incur further racist attitudes.

    For Shame!

  86. Hmm, I briefly went through the comments on this page and I was reminded of the movie, “Crash”. Did anyone watch that movie? The movie is very thought-provoking, because it reminds us to look at people as individuals, each with unique thought patterns, behaviour, emotions and so on.

    It’s very easy for us to generalise and stereotype people, especially when we see people in a group. In Singapore, when I see the hordes of foreign workers from India, Sri Lanka or Thailand for example, I too find it hard to see them as individuals. Sometimes I feel threatened by their presence because there are just so many of them in my neighbourhood. But I guess Australians probably feel the same way about Singaporeans, or Asians in general, who work much longer hours in order to earn more money to make a better living. And maybe some Americans feel the same way when they see many Mexicans making their way across the border to look for a better life.

    Maybe stereotyping people is a way our human brain tries to analyse and “categorise” information about people, to make it easier for us to understand others. But as the movie, “Crash”, has reminded me, that what we think we know about people, or about a race, may not always be right.

    It’s easy to condemn racism, but difficult to ever not be a racist in some way.

  87. Just to add on, when I was in the US last year, I noticed that most African Americans were not very friendly towards us, Chinese Singaporeans. They would behave in a more pleasant manner towards the “white” Americans than towards us. Even when I was on the plane (United Airlines), an African American flight attendant came to me while I was eating and tried to joke with me. But her joke sounded more like making fun of me. I was quite shocked by all this because I thought, of all people, the African Americans would be the ones to understand racism the most.

    Then, one day, when I was shopping in a large mall, and trying to push my giant cart through the door (it wasn’t an automatic one), there was a group of African Americans walking just around me. And honestly, I thought, okay, let me just get through this door. But to my pleasant surprise, one of them offered to hold the door open for me while I got through it. And he was really nice and friendly, with smiles and all. That really changed my mind about this racism thing.

    As the Chinese say, you really cannot turn over a whole boat of people with one bamboo stick. 不要用一竹竿打翻一船人。

    I think this is the best conclusion I can have about this topic, racism. *:)

  88. wow, hot topic. marriage has no common style, hard to say it is good or not. no judgmental. is shoe comfortable, only foot know

  89. The last comment by AussiePb really echoes what I intend to say. The population of Shanghai is close to 16 million. If we take just half as women that spells 8 million. So if you encounter some unfortunate events with say, 20 women, no one can just generalise behavior and use words like “ALL”, “MOST” and so on. Based upon isolated incidents like that, research techniques say that you CANNOT generalise. So might as well think about something more meaningful and positive like how to help educate African children instead of ‘harping’ on misfortunes. I mean, I know its painful to lose a husband to a young pretty thing from Shanghai, but what can you do? Can you stop such behavior based on your own strength? By whining can you get your unfaithful man back? Just move on in life, consider it as an experience and think more positively. There is also the children factor in the equation as well.

    Such are the “ups and downs” of life, right? There also exist such things called ‘counselling’ -something positive from the West..

  90. Hmmm… I’m a little late here but come on guys, why is the issue of racism brought up when it’s all about unfaithful horny men ?

  91. @wonton – hehe – I won’t be suckered in on this again – peace has already been made.

    One point to make about the topic – “I was asked (more than once) about my point of view of Shanghainese girls marrying foreigners”…

    You take this to be “all about unfaithful horny men” – I take it to be about true love discovered and everlasting hapiness. You and I have differed on the way we think before, so no point belabouring the point… I am a very positive thinker, and by your own admission in other posts you loften look to the negatives. We’re different – no problems.

    I would like to offer you though (in all sincerity, and with absoutely no antognism) the following. I give lectures all over the globe to directors and CEOs of many various MNCs and Fortune 500 companies on the power of positive thinking. Positive thinking has been proven to not just help create personal & professional wealth and success (for which it is very powerful), but it can also lead to greater personal happiness and enlightenment, improve the health and increase longevity – I would be more than happy to share some of my materials with you (for free!!) – I think you would be amazed at how your life, wealth, status and happiness could be changed dramatically, just by utilizing some of the basic tools used by the majority of the world’s most successful businessmen and leaders. Let me know – seriously mate – you could use it to help drive the improvements and changes that cannot be made with words penned in a blog entry…

  92. @AussiePB

    No No, I am not talking about you. I was commenting on how everyone seems to be blaming Chinese women for breaking up seemingly perfect marriage. I really have no problems with chinese girls marrying foreigners. I was reacting to some of the earlier comments that were quite unkind. It got rather confusing after a while with Taiwan independance and stuff like that.

  93. Hey wonton… on this we totally agree… have a good weekend!! I’m gonna spend it watching football gradfinals from Australia… (we have a wedding to attend tomorrow morning, so I’m wondering the best way to escape early for the football without my wife getting angry at me)…. :D

  94. @AussiePB

    Thanks for your kind offer. My writing may appear negative simply because I chose to engage at that point. Fact is, reality is not always as nice as what we want it to be. Yes, we can choose how to see it – half full vs half empty kind of thing.

    But if you know me in person, you’d be surprised at how positive I am. Being negati..well lets just say raw, gives me some balance. I am already at a level most people would like to be.

    In my experience, movtivation for change can come in two ways, either through positive reinforcement, or facing raw reality. I don’t believe in negative reinforcement. I tend to be direct, sometimes painfully. but it gets the message across and gets the job done. Popularity has very little to do with managing a business. (of course being crummy is not going to get anything done either)

    No point bringing up the old stuff, but if you read through the tread again you may see that I bear no malice in my comments. Like I said, even my wife was perplexed. Or maybe I am just not as good at expressing myself. What the heck, it’s my second language.

    Don’t worry, I am quite fine. :)

  95. Aussie football…and I thought you hate violence !

    Guess you guys think Superbowl are for girls.

    Have a good weekend.

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  99. I went the opposite way, so to speak. I didn’t go looking for a shanghai girl to date but I found one anyway. That is to say she left to study English in my country (Ireland) and I met her. Now we have being a couple for a while and will probably marry. Being a foreigner doesn’t seem to matter to her or for that matter her family. If anything her mother is happier that she met me.

    You mention

    “Are Shanghainese girls marry foreigners just for money?”

    “Are foreigners treat girls in China not as seriously, and play with them?”

    “Are the Shanghainese girls just show off, or something else?”

    Well as for the money not in my case I am not by any means rich. As for the not treating seriously well maybe in some cases. Are the girls showing off? Again maybe in some cases.

    Why do so many shanghai girls date foreign men? Well there is one possibility. There were a lot more girls born than boys in the last 20 years or so. Or so my girlfriend tells me anyway.

  100. Why do Chinese women prefer foreign men? I don’t know. But it might be helpful if someone could explain the methodology of the idiom 崇洋媚外. Why does such an idiom exist in Chinese and what does it really mean? Does anybody know if there’s any equivalent in English or any other language? And most importantly, is this term positively- or negatively-connoted nowadays in China?

  101. My wife says that 崇洋媚外 has negative connotations.

  102. @DB, 崇洋媚外, it is definitely a negative word – to describe the intention to think everything outside China is good, and everything in China is bad.

    This is may be a very unique word just in China. The 洋 (Yang) means Ocean, or foreigners, since in old China, most foreigners comes to China via ocean, and people call then Ocean Man (洋人). So, this word is pretty local.

  103. Hey every boudy,

    Fisrt of all i find there are lot’s of true thing’s which has been wrote from the diffrent people……I respect the openinon of every one………well i am in shanghai since four month……….all i find here it’s people are faster in sex and espically with money……..even the rest of the world’s………..there are lot’s of big city in the world mey be people would like to vist and and earn some money this is for sure there is some espiacall reason that people most of the time espically this jenuration people they wanted to get marride with them the reason are like money,life style,strong exprience or mey be something like this……………but it dose not mean that thing run like this every time with every people….i know lot of people who get marry when they are from diffrent country and they live there life happy ever…and they are ready to face every hard time just because they love they have a pure and real thing’s in there heart and in mind…….

    Well it depend’s on the person i think……i also find lot’s of man who wants to get marry with western country people and in shanghai there are also a plently of girl’s that they wanted to do a same thing’s.

    Yeah some how these thing’s are negative and some how these thing’s are also postives……….

    If the couples some time they think it cound be hard to spend there hole single life with the person who is comeing from out…..just because of culture and every thing’s are diffrent……then

    there is love but a big counfuseing about your patner………..and life in the future…………….

    I think some how this is sellfish thinking because ok i don’t want to give long defenation about love but to say in short word that i think when you are in love with some one if it’s pure than people should be ready to face every kind of hard thing’s that comes in life every thinh they must be ready to face…..well about the time to get marry with some one it is also very inportant………….but i think when you are in love you almost forget every thing just like where he or she is comeing from age and no matter about money and all these thing’s.i see people get marry then know only eachother for not more then ten day’s also,….i know this line souck’s people but it’s true…….i think loveing some one it’s wound’nt be a plan or something like this…..whene which one or where he or she should be comeing from………

    It”s about think anyway the last line what i want to say is even people try to stop these thing’s it’s not going to stop for sure all you can do is come in this blog and write about the thing’s what people have been faceing……..

    I am from nepal the country is in between india and china…………

    If some one can feel truly what i have been writeing or if some one want’s to talk more than person can mail me in this address tito_pat@yahoo.com or ran_koketi@hotmail.com

  104. Let me all give you my answer about why women get marry with out country man………

    YoU all people keep in mind that it depends…………..with the person……………………..

    The reason are money life change and happy in the future…..but these reason are not sure…….

    It dose not also mean that it can’t be sure.Never know………..anything………ok if some one is reading my word i want to ask a questions is that don’t you ever think to change your life more better……….don’t you ever want to have good life or happy ever

    don’t you want to have a comfortable life…………..or write panter………….

    yes you know that you want and i also know that you want………these are the reason i think girl from shanghai think mey be if they get marry with the chinese person nothing will change they can see the future when they get marry with chinese man these are the reason.The diffrent is only one thing’s how you want to follow your love in the postive or in the pure way or in expecting way……….this is why it depend’s..on people……..that you have to agree that’s what i say these word’s mey sound’s little like………….but these the real thing’s.

    There are poor girl and rich girl that they dream to get marride with western people……….why i think i don’t need to explane you do understand………..

    So this sound’s like it’s all about the money……………

    That talking to diffrent people in this blog it’s only shareing there exprience………That if some one is thinking to change the this how it is running with girl from shanghai then they really need to focous at my word’s…….that first they need to make people full of money change the thing’s into more comfortable………..

    These mey also sound’s stupid but these are the fact’s………….one more questions from ran_koketi@hotmail.com

    is dose western people have a dream to get marry with girl’s from shanghai ?or only play…….let”s all be seirous about this….

    you got my address if some one want’s to give me the answer please mail me……….and i have pleanty questions and more than a pleanty i have the answer.This really could be interseting see you every boudy.

  105. I’ve recently been pondering this topic again, and came across one question that I couldn’t find an answer for.

    Imagine a foreign expat marries a Chinese woman in China. They are formally registered as a married couple in China, but for whatever reasons not(!) in the man’s home country. And there’s no prenup. The man gets the major proportion of his remuneration paid in a hard currency to his home country account. He has virtually no tangible property or assets in China except for some consumables such as clothes, electric appliances. His apartment in China is of course paid by his company.

    What happens if the couple divorces and the man doesn’t want to share anything of his assets with his former wife. All of his assets are insulated from her in his home country. He is willing to go back to his home country for good in order to maintain his assets and avoid any exposure to the Chinese Marriage/Family/Divorce Law. Is there anything the Chinese woman can do in this situation to secure a piece of the man’s assets? Pls keep in mind that they’re only registered as a married couple in China!

    Another similar of this question would be: What happens if the man skips the divorce procedure and just leaves China for good? Does the woman in this situation has any chance to get some of his property? Can she file suit in the man’s home country if the man negates being married to her by international standards?

    Would be glad to get some replies. Thx in advance!

  106. @DB – in the case of Australia and China it’s simple. Just because the marriage is registered in China only makes no difference, it is still recognized as a valid and legal marriage under Australian law… proceedings can be undertaken in either country.

  107. Hi DB,

    If the man is British or American the lady is out of luck. I had a fellow expat I knew who left his Chinese wife and 10 month old baby in China to fend for themselves because he got offered a better job to move back to America. The only thing she had to fall back on was me because I invited them to a parties so she remembered I that I stayed in Sandalwood estates. Now I have this lady I don’t really know with a baby and her elderly mother living in my home.

    Talk about a way to ruin your sex life. I just don’t have the heart to kick a family out on the street so they can live with me for as long as I live in Shanghai. One night I came back from partying and this poor woman was sitting on my bed and I asked her what was the problem and she tired to kiss me.

    I told her no no we are just friends. You don’t owe me anything. Then she left and all of a sudden all these emotions just came over me and I started to cry and I thought of how the evils of man had made the beautiful elegant Chinese woman feel that she had to have sex with me to survive.

    This broke my heart and really changed my view on the way I treated Chinese women like changing socks. Forgive me women I’m sorry. I will repay my debts by making sure this woman and her family never have to want for anything again.

    In short it is men who cause all these problems and we need to all change our ways while getting rid of our racist thoughts.

    I may have lost my party life but I have gain a strange family circle that I wouldn’t change for anything in the world.

  108. @ AussiePB & Naif: Thx for your comments!

    This is a very tough story, Naif. It was exactly the kind of story I wanted to hear/read. And I’d be glad to read more similar real-life reports. No matter what kind of motivation a woman has for marrying a foreigner, she should be aware that her husband can always “flee” at any time. Of course, the same thing may happen if the husband was Chinese, but a Chinese cannot flee out of the country as easily has a foreigner.

    I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t share your pity for her, though. Judging from her current despair, I suspect that she has had some less-than-honourable motives to marry in the first place, which makes her less pitiful in my opinion.

  109. @DB – Ultimately we are all adults and responsible for our actions. A woman who thinks she can survive by simply sticking to a man (Chinese or otherwise) is nothing more than a parasitic leech. The man who abandoned her is as irresponsible as she is stupid. I guess they were made for each other.

    If I were in Naif’s position I would have told her to get a job and kicked her out after a week. Life is hard. There are no free lunches anywhere especially in China. We can’t afford it !

  110. Yes, Wonton, you’re absolutely right. That’s why I wrote that I didn’t feel pity for that particular woman. Neither do I believe that Naif ought to feel sorry for anything. Maybe I didn’t make myself clear enough.

  111. @Wonton – Yes I know you and DB have a great point about the lady. However if she didn’t have a baby I would have thrown her out after one month or so after I gave her some time to find work and save up some money. Her and her mother do contribute around the house with cooking, cleaning which requires a lot of time because it’s rather big. Also I’m your stereotypical mothers boy who has never had to do anything around the house his whole life and the moment he gets in the house throws all his clothes on the floor, only eats takeout, and has to keep buying new clothes weekly because he never learned how to wash them himself.

    So for right now the situation works for me.

  112. @Naif – oh, I see… so despite your professed tears for that slovenly women, you were actually just using her as a replacement for your mother… I guess it’s rather honorable that you don’t change women like socks. You just need them to change your socks !

    Let us not be racists, let us be gay MCPs

    Thanks for being an honest hypocrite.

    I’m sorry I wasted my time on you.

  113. @wonton… I’m with u on this one… speechless – for my benefit, what is MCP?

  114. MCP = Male Chaunivist Pig, I suppose.

    Seems as if Naif’s surprising revelation puts the situation in a completely different perspective…

  115. Who wouldnt love a young and strong woman with Angel’s smile and that killing slim, firm&tight body?! esp. for foreign guys and as a matter of a fact(for most guys) are suckers for HER! considering there are soooo many FAT and obese women in the west. Guys are guys and when it comes to HOT women, well we living the material world and so we are the material! and theres nothing wrong to want more and make life better! Plus, there are only a few really HOT women out there so its up to THEM to choose a foreign face or not! and keep getting jealous….

  116. @Rocketgirl – It’s alright, there is enough space in this world for stupid and shallow people to find each other. You have my best wishes for finding your other shallow half.

  117. I am seeking your opinions on how many africans have gotten married to the chinese girls or how manu chinese women have gotten married to african men.

    A lot of talk about westerns and europeans.A

  118. @Stardom: There seem to be a recurring thread here that chinese dislike people with darker complexion. But if we look at some places outside China, we will know that this is not the case. I know Chinese-Indian marriages do takes place in Hong Kong, Singapore, and India. In the States I know of a Chinese lady who has a Black husband and he got along fine with his in-laws. It’s really no big deal. He even picked up some cantonese to greet the grandma. It’s quite unfair to simply label all Chinese as racists. Please remember that until very recently, most in China had very little exposure to any outsiders, especially those of other races. The whites are seen in a little more positive light simply because of movies. There is generally a slant in movies from Hollywood that even the local blacks in the States have an issue with.

    I am confident that in time with more exposure, everything will balance out at the end.

    Lets not forget that once upon a time, the chinese too were cast as Fu Man Chu types played by white man or as ridiculous wise man spewing nonsense in Benny Hill. I used to get quite pissed off. But now I figured that they were just a reflection of a point in time when some were more stupid than others.

    Be patient, change will come, and it’s already faster than anytime in China’s history.

  119. i am a 28 chinese girl who never leave my country for a single moment.i love china deeply as this is my country.as a person who has always been very busy from education to career,suddenly i found myself very interested to find a good husband abroad(i am single).please write me to me if you are a good honest nice guy from 30 to 45. my email is lilyli1980@yahoo.cn

    more things to be known and found out.if there wouldnot be love then there would be friendship.please dont hesitate to write to me.thanks

  120. why do Western men date Shanghainese women

    – 90% desparate for sex

    – 5% true love

    – 5% checking out the the local flavor

    why do Shanghainese women date Western men

    – 90% desperate for cash

    – 5% true love

    – 5% checking out the foreign flavor

    So in 10% of the cases we have total overlap in motivation, and in the other 80% of cases it is the oldest trade in the world.

  121. @mrMa – do you mind me asking the source of your statistics?? Or are you just making some numbers up for fun to suit your opinion?

  122. I guess the source is: common sense. Just go out and ask some thousands of ordinary peolple on the street, and you’ll see the results will come pretty close to what mrMa asserts.

    Please don’t take this as an offense. I really feel happy for you for enjoying such a wonderful cross-border marriage, but I assure you this is still the exception compared to the so-called “80% of other cases”.

  123. I speak to many people ‘on the streets’ everyday (maybe I move in different circles to you) – perceptions of biased individuals vs reality – it’s difficult to convince people otherwise – commonsense?? – I suggest you use yours in this discussion. Show me data and not opinion – I want to know where this data came from – valid question to ask I think!!

    Fear not – wisdom will come with age and experience. In the meantime, feel free to have your opinion, just don’t try and subsantiate it with substandard or invalid data.

  124. “[…] perceptions of biased individuals vs reality – it’s difficult to convince people otherwise – commonsense?? – I suggest you use yours in this discussion.” Dito.

    You want data about China? About a country in which even GDP figures aren’t reliable? Where do you expect anyone to get convincing data? Why don’t you show us some data that YOU have gathered on the streets and verified as absolutely reliable and representative? My view is that meaningful data in China is not available. All statistics are very likely to be intentionally forged to suit a certain party – be it the author himself, the government or anyone else. Hence, I prefer to collect data myself in daily life – be they biased or not.

    As you mentioned, we probably move in different circles. But that, in turn, should tell you that the impression you have of people in your circles does not apply to all of China.

  125. Hey DB,

    I am with you on this one. AussiePB really does take offense to any comment regarding HIS Shanghainese wife. I have no idea if his wife or his marriage is within the 80%, I pray for him that its not but he simply cannot accept the reality that MOST CHINESE women marry foreigners for money.

    He said he is part Aborigine but I bet you that he is white… else his marriage would be otherwise.

    I speak to many others on the street too and have the same data / set of stats as yours… Maybe AussiePB lives in his own world of perfect crossborder marriage?

    Try convincing us in 30 years time.

    For now, until there are no more fake marriages for the sake of the Green card, it will be hard for anyone other than him to believe that Shanghai women marry foreigners 80% of the time for true love.

    LOL

  126. @db – you have supported my point exactly… I wasn’t sprouting data – someone else was… if it’s not real, why post it? There are people that read stuff on blogs like this and believe it. Also completely agree that my experiences are not necessarily reflective of the entire population of China – I never once suggested otherwise.

    @yeepee – I didn’t mention my wife in my most recent post about the substandard data that was posted. Actually what I do take offense to is people making pointed remarks at skin colour – since you are so hung up on colour, what colour would you decsribe my son as?? Be careful, coz it could lead to a punch in the nose in other circumstances – also FYI, not sure of your heritage or financial position, but since you brought up my wife – We met in a professional environment, she is well-travelled, extremely highly educated and comes from a very well-to-do family (much more well-to-do than mine actually), with no need for green cards, money or anything else you might suggest. Also, I’m not naive enough to believe that all cross-border relationships have the same base (just check with people who have experiences with Mexico and foreign relationships). You agree with db’s post about data not being available in China, but then continue on to quote a number of 80% again – do you agree with db’s post, or just his AussiePB bashing.

    To you both, please review my post in reponse to the data again… I never once generalized nor tried to offer any data. As a person qualified in statistical analysis, I will always question any data that is unsubstantiated… that’s all I did and referenced my personal experience / circles… what’s with the poignant attack from you?? Perhaps it is you who have issues with cross-cultural marriages and your way of subtly getting your feelings across is to bash me for a very innocent post questioning the validity of data that someone posted… when I questioned it, MrMa suggested that I lacked common-sense.

    My family are members of groups that socialize together – happily married mixed couples with children… western men/chinese women, chinese men/western women, african women/chinese men, european men/south american women, and many, many more combinations… some have them have just now read the above posts and cannot believe some of the negativity associated with many of these posts – especially this latest unwarranted ‘attack’ by yeepee.

    I implore you both to please re-read the previous few posts and allow me to question unsubstantiated data – please let’s just continue with good-hearted, positive debate based upon opinion and experiences without the personal attacks – this is what I’ve grown to love about Jianshou’s blog over the years… God bless!! :p

  127. just ignore these idiots aussiepb. they don’t have a brain between them. my guess is neither of them have ever had sex let alone a serious relationship. they should butt-poke each other instead of trying to provoke people here. as a fellow australian if u need help kicking some racist ass just let me know. i’ve got your back. dickheads both of them.

  128. Poignant attack from me? AussiePB bashing?? Can’t find anything in my previous postings that’s been offensive in any way…

    Of course you, AussiePB, may raise doubts about data you consider unsubstantiated. But you can’t forbid others to express their opinions. mrMa has expressed his opinion based on numbers. I don’t know the source of his numbers, but that doesn’t matter. Even though I haven’t counted the number of discussions I’ve had on this topic, I know the overall result of what I’ve found so far in my life comes pretty close to mrMa’s numbers. That gives me the right to form a view of my own based on real-life data collected from various groups of people in China, and to support mrMa by expressing my affirmative view. You may still consider the numbers unsubstantiated, but as long as no official and verified data exist, it’s appropriate for the time being to rely on data one has collected oneself. Period.

  129. johnm,

    Show me where I tried to provoke anybody. If you feel provoked, it may be advisable for you to see a shrink. But I certainly didn’t have the intention to provoke anyone. It’s rather people like you who make mountains of out a molehill that arouse anger among members of forum who communicate in an appropriate way. Your posting is the only recent one that’s really getting offensive.

  130. @johnm, please pay attention to your words.

    It is firm rule on this blog that:

    Attacking any oppinion? Definitely yes.

    Attacking any person? Absolutely no.

    Please provide evidence or show your oppinions. If the personal attack continoues, I have to remove your comments from the board.

    @DB, and @AussiePB, and others, thanks for the comments. I am happy to see although it is a hot debate, you guys are still keep like gentlemen, and opened the door of communication. Hope everyone gets something by joining the discussion.

    My personal experience, no matter how “nonsense” someone’s comment first appear to be, after sometime, calm down, or even better, read it again after one year or two, you will probably start to understand or agree part of the comment – this is true for people from both sides of the debate.

    Happy “debating”!

  131. @john – take it easy mate…

    @db – once again, you have agreed with my post – no substantaited data exists. Your real-experiences lack the appropriate sample size to be validly considered data (China’s population is >1.4bln – foreginer population reading this blog? I’m not really sure)… everyone is entitled to their own opinions on any topic, and I encourage and applaud open debate (when it is meaningful). To post % numbers that are just subjective opinion is just down-right silly. As a statistican, I cannot accept opinion stated in terms of data… it is valid for a person to say something like “in my experience, most of the people I know…” or “I’ve witnessed a large % of people…” etc… but to quote actual numbers with no further substantiation of where they are derived – this is inadequate and ignorant… I merely asked the question “where did u get the data from?” – why are u so excited about me asking the question??

    Have an opinion sure, but you cannot convince me that using data that is flawed or has no substance can lead to meaningful debate. Your real-life experiences (not data, by definition) help form your subjective opinion (which is absolutely fine), but in no way can be representative of the entire population of China or mixed-country relationships. PERIOD!!

    As far as “AussiePB” bashing – actually, MrMa (who was not the original poster of the ‘data’) suggested I lacked commonsense by asking the source of the data – I used the commonsense angle back to him – then you (unprovoked by me), used it also on me (by the way, “ditto” is spelled with two t’s)… yeepee’s comments then further inflamed this ‘mini attack’ by you.

    Let’s leave it at that – we obviously disagree on this topic, and we are both entitled to our opinion – but please just re-read my post asking where the data came from (as I asked you to before) – you seem to have misinterpreted my question as something to be offended by or to warrant your ‘mini attack’.

    Take care…

  132. AussiePB,

    Yes, let’s leave it at that. No need to go on splitting hairs. Disagreement is also one possible outcome of a discussion.

    But pls do yourself and all of us one favour: If you implore others to re-read postings, pls do it yourself, too. yeepee’s comments certainly didn’t inflame a ‘mini attack’ by me b’cos you had already replied to him when I asked about when I became offensive at all. I understand and respect the rules for communication in a public forum, and I’d appreciate it if you did the same instead of wrongfully accusing others of attacking you.

  133. @DB – *sigh* I don’t even know why I’m wasting my time… you’ve confused me by your timeframe – I referred to your ‘mini-attack’ (the incorrectly spelt “ditto”) in a single post – to u and to yippee…

    As for “and please please do yourself and ALL of us one favour” – contrary to your own beliefs in your own popularity, you are not the king (or queen) of blogging, and you don’t have any right to speak on behalf of ALL other readers of Jian Shuo’s blogs. As Jian Shuo rightly posted – keep it about the subject, not the person.

    Feel free to have the last say here, because I refuse to answer anymore little personal digs… just really wasting my valuable time by even responding to this last one. Gotta go – got some real work to do now. All the best!!

  134. Since this little sub-debate between a total of four persons has gotten way off topic, I hereby apologize to mrMa for having distracted the readers’ attention from his last posting which I find truly interesting and worth following up on. Hence, I take the liberty to quote mrMa’s posting of April 4, 2008 10:41 PM so that everybody can resume the discussion at that point again:

    “why do Western men date Shanghainese women

    – 90% desparate for sex

    – 5% true love

    – 5% checking out the the local flavor

    why do Shanghainese women date Western men

    – 90% desperate for cash

    – 5% true love

    – 5% checking out the foreign flavor

    So in 10% of the cases we have total overlap in motivation, and in the other 80% of cases it is the oldest trade in the world.”

  135. Question for “MRMA” – where did u get your stats? Mind me asking?

  136. what % am I…. I hate fat women…… joking apart I did explain to my wife ( Shanghainese) before we married, that western men are mostly only rich in china, everyones income is the same $2000 in the USA, £ 2000 in UK or rmb 2000 in china seems to be the expected salary of a graduate starting work, ( 2 years ago ) only when i get to Shanghai and convert my pounds i seem to be rich, if a German working at volkswagen take’s his bride back to Wolfsberg it is just a car factory town same as Detroit and he is not living a fantastic life, compared with Shanghai. I was led to belive by my wife that her reason’s for marrying a European were. First as a chinese wife to a chinese she becomes the property of the husband’s family and would have to look after his parent’s when they were sick and old…. secondly her family lost all their money when her father got sick the treatment kept him alive untill the money ran out, this it not possible in England and i can see her logic, although i did explain nothing is free and our tax is higher to pay for it. For my part i really do’nt like fat women or men and i have chinese friend’s in London and travelled to Shanghai 4 year’s ago and met her then, we have a beautiful daughter who speak’s manderin and Shanghaiese, and little english but will be in London in June for two years to learn it, before she goes back to junior school in Shanghai.

  137. I have a relative who is my husband’s sister’s daughter. She married a Japanese old man and got a lot of money.The Japanese man is 22 years older than her and only 2 years younger than her mother.At first ,her father didn’t agree.but the old Japanese man gave her parents about 60000 dollars.Then they agreed. Now they have a daughter.The old man has already had two children who are as old as his wife.

  138. anthropologist

    June 19, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    Let’s put the issue into 2 parts:

    1. How some shanghaiese girls think about ‘foreigners’

    2. society and culture

    1. How Shanghaiese girls think

    For the first part, it’s true that some shanghaiese girls find ‘foreigners’ a fashion or more wealthy, but as a sad fact to these ‘foreigners’ is that, these girls favours ‘foreigers’ in a sense of ignorace. They may have some ignorant ideas that ‘foreigners must be wealthy’, ‘foreigne countries are better’, etc. These ignorances had already vanished a century ago in the West, that the Western world projected an inferior image of the non-westen world to the minds of its people. Without doubt, many white girls find black guys, we all know the reason, not becuase they think black guys are rich, but a ‘stereotype perspective’ that, blacks are sexually bigger than whites. This is similar to the ‘stereotype perspective’ of shanghaiese girls. In fact many of the shanghaiese girls got their impressions of the west simply from movies or musics. Therefore the only way to correct the minds of shanghaiese girls is give the right education to them, let them know that many white guys rely on social securities or welfares to survive in their countries, many of the ‘foreigners’ are uglier than those in movies, etc.

    2. Society and Culture

    For the second part, it is more a complicted issue, but I will make it simple. Let’s imagine a case, that families of ‘foreigners’ are put and raised in China, without preveilages or being-deprived, what will happen within several generations? The answer is clear, the majority of ‘foreign’ girls will pick Chinese males and the ‘foreigners’ will be assimilated into the Chinese population. The reason is simple, ‘foreign’ guys do not meet the criteria of ‘good men’ in the Chinese society. For the ‘foreign’ guys who wish to survive, they have to shape themselves to meet the Chinese society, in which they will have no more advantages over Chinese males. The fact is that many shanghaiese girls give exemptions to ‘foreigners’ when choosing boyfriends, which are criteria to Chinese males. This is really weird but true. But I think everything will resume to ‘normal’ very soon.

    In fact, early Chinese emigrants to overseas especially in Latin America often picked foreign wives. Countries like Peru and Panama have around 15% of population who have Chinese blood in their body. Normally, Chinese males prefer women who are modest, reliable and kind. However, western girls in the developed world nowadays are too far from these traditional criteria. This is the main reason why some Chinese males do not pick western girls for relationships.

  139. Slightly off-topic: Does marrying a Chinese citizen allow a foreigner to obtain a permanent residence permit in China, irrespective of whether he/she is employed or has any regular source of income?

    In other words, if an expat’s China assignment ends and the company doesn’t extend it although he wants to stay, will he be forced to find a new job in China to retain his residence permit/visa or may he stay just because his wife is Chinese?

  140. @anthropologist

    Thanks for your hilarious insight regarding the love of the white women for the black man’s dick and other earth shattering revelations of a handicapped mind.

  141. Here is a real story.

    An old (59) American business guy met a young Chinese college girl (21) from the country side on line and “fell in love”. She invited him to visit her and gave her virginity to him in a five star hotel. He told her he would not marry her from the beginning. But she took him anyway. The scene was brutal: he is 194 cm 150 kilogram 60 year old senior and she is 142 cm and 40 kilo 22 young junior.

    After this, they went on almost one tour per year around China and the old guy is absolutely in love with China. It is kind of a relationship. He bought her and her family a big and nice flat. Support her and her siblings finishing college, send them clothes, gifts, money… No wonder she bought him home the second trip he went to China and introduced him to her parents, sisters… Her family just loved him and looked up to him. She was dreaming and getting herself ready to go visit him in the state once she would finish her master degree and marry him and give him babies…

    Little she knows, he is not such Mr. right after all, the first trip, the first place they met, the five star hotel, he actually slept with another middle aged married Chinese woman who actually paid her own flight and booked the hotel for the meeting. The same trip, before arriving China, he slept with two other young girls in Indonisia. And the whole time he was supporting her and her family, he has his dirty mind on her sisters and even her mother.

    His own American family knows about his Chinese women adventure. They were all discussed by his act but puzzled by how those Chinese women would let him do this to them.

    But the real thing I don’t understand is all those women in China he could somehow keep a long term relatinship with and they were all faithful to him and hoping one day they would go to the US visit him or he would come visit and stay with them. That poor middle aged woman even divorced her husband and kept herself for him for 3 years until one day she found out she contracted STD from him. Same as the poor girl.

    In the end, he got married, but not with any of them and all the romance went cold turkey because his new wife found out about it. And those poor Chinese women had no idea what happened after endless desperate effort to contact him.

    So sad story? As a Chinese woman myslef, I really don’t understand. Worst of all, I married this man who is 27 years older than I and I really really love him.

  142. We have read quite a lot of stories of this kind now. It seems to me that most of them convey a “bad foreign guy, poor and ignorant Chinese woman” image, i.e. I perceive the stories’ intention to be a warning to other Chinese women. In this context, I wonder how often you read such stories in the Chinese media. Do you often come along long while reading a newspaper or a magazine?

  143. Heh – this thread always comes back… I know guys similar to the one described by budong – also know ladies similar… I think the point is that nationality or country is not the factor here – once a dog, always a dog… it could be a chinese lady and chinese man, or american lady and american man, or a lady from finland with a man from africa… if a person plays up on his partner I don’t see how nationality or heritage plays a part?? Any situation and characters could get written into any story and made sound relevant.

  144. Hi AussiePB, I agree that a dog is a dog irrespective of nationality. But my view is that we’re not bashing evil dogs, but are rather feeling sorry for the Chinese women who have fallen into the traps of the evil dogs.

    The situation is: He (= the hunter) exploits young and innocent women in China (= the environment). You argue by replacing the hunter and stressing that locals could do the same. I would argue by replacing the environment. In a different environment, where white men are not regarded as the superior race, the dog’s track record would be much less splendid. This view shifts my focus away from the hunter to the women (= the prey). The reality in China is that white men have a much larger and easier-to-get pool of potential prey, and I don’t mean in terms of absolute population (that would be comparing apples with oranges) but in % of the total population. A significant amount of white men who have failed at home go to China and other Asian countries for exactly this reason!

    The advantages of dating foreigners from Chinese women’s perspective have been outlined further above. And women who do date foreigners do it on their own will. But most of them are not necessarily aware of what the foreigner they are dating really has in mind. That’s why I believe it is legitimate to warn Chinese women of foreigners and to advise them to vet them more carefully.

    I know this is not fair to all good foreigners, and it doesn’t protect the Chinese women from bad Chinese men, but it does help naive Chinese women become more cautious and more mature. As part of a natural process, they would (hopefully) become more able to differentiate between good foreigners and bad foreigners, and also good locals and bad locals.

  145. There is difference between the local bad man and the foreign bad man. The American man would not have the same liberal to do what he did to the Chinese in America. Also we need to see the fact that he is actually invited by those Chinese women. And he is glad to go there for the feast because those women all want him to fall in love by using their weapon of being exotic, good Chinese woman, sex, being nice, soft, tender, intellegent, loyal… whatever the good chinese woman quality portrayed by the out side world. But in fact, are they (chinese women) really possess such virtues? Do notice they are all college educated women. At least one woman is not so loyal to her Chinese husband. So if we judge by the conent of their characters, are the Chinese so innocent?

    There is inherent flaw in international romance between rich and poor countries no matter how strongly some people deny the unfairness between the two parties. Is there realy such a sharp line between the good foreigner and the bad ones? Do you sincerely think that you didn’t take advantage of having a white face, a foreigner passport and the expat benefit package???

    By the way, it is a real story. I did not copy from anywhere.

  146. Hi budong – I certainly understand the point you are trying to make.

    As far as advantages – Sometimes I cannot help but feel I’m the one who has taken advantage of the beautiful in-laws I’ve inherited – they have accepted me unconditionally. They are much better off financially than I was accustomed to growing up. My wife was already very ‘worldly-travelled’ before we met and a successul business woman in her own right… in short, she didn’t need my passport, money or assets (pittance in comparison to what my in-laws have). I’ve never worked in China on an expat package (local package – we’ve covered this on another thread). The only thing left on your list is my white skin (which has black heritage)… we all looked past that many years ago. Race and culture blending can be a beautiful thing. My mum in Australia loves and boasts about the fact that my wife is Chinese. We married out of love for each other – absolutely no hidden agendas – and we are completely dedicated to each other, our families, our baby boy and our life together. I also know other couples with similar circumstances to ourselves… it may not be the norm, but it happens. :p

  147. @DB – good post by the way. Understand your analogies and point completely.

  148. Of course I am saying ALL international romance is bad. Obviously AussiPB is a good example. But like you said, your case is one of the rare ones. I wonder whether you witness of heard of the bad case like mine. What most people in your circle do about it? NOTHING! They might shoot their heads, say bad bad bad and then forget about it. But think about those eager hopeful girls and women, how much harder for them to keep on their lives being in another man or especially a foreign man. How can they put their feet on the same ground as other Chinese women did not enjoy the same benefit of being with a foreign men. You do know being with a foreign man is kind of higher class among regular Chinese. Anybody to blame for those bad case of foreign-romance-goes-bad?

    Also I notice most foreign men who are interested in Chinese women usually discriminate against or look down on Chinese men. Maybe in a way they use this to justify that no matter how bad they took advantage or exploite the Chinese women, they were actually doing them a favor to liberate them from the control of Chinese small men?

    About how warm and welcomed Chinese women are treated oversea in Aussi’s case, I don’t think it explains anything for the issues we are talking about here.

    If it isalways a happy ending, everybody is happy, what is the problem?

    Sometimes I wonder why those international companies would not do anything to stop their employees exploiting the local. Maybe in many ways, some of those big western business practice is another form of colonisation. And believe it, I have seem plenty of this around me. Compare to the western expats, the Chinese men are much more displined and welcomed and accepted by the locals.

  149. If it is always a happy ending, everybody is happy, what is the problem?

    Of course I am not saying ALL international romance is bad. Obviously AussiPB is a good example. But like you said, your case is one of the rare ones. I wonder whether you witness of heard of the bad case like mine. What most people in your circle do about it? NOTHING? They might shoot their heads, say bad bad bad and then forget about it. But think about those eager hopeful girls and women, how much harder for them to believe in another man or especially a foreign man? How can they put their feet on the same ground as other Chinese women who did not enjoy the same benefit of being with a foreign men? How a young girl who received so much by sleeping with a rich older guy can make anything for herself? How can she be able to date a regular Chinese boy after all those years believing she is going to live in US in a comfortable life? You do know being with a foreign man is kind of higher class among regular Chinese. Anybody to blame for those bad case of foreign-romance-goes-bad?

    Also I notice most foreign men who are interested in Chinese women usually discriminate against or look down on Chinese men. Maybe in a way they use this to justify that no matter how bad they took advantage or exploite the Chinese women, they were actually doing them a favor to liberate them from the control of Chinese small men?

    About how warm and welcomed Chinese women are treated oversea in Aussi’s case, I don’t think it explains anything for the issues we are talking about here.

    Sometimes I wonder why those international companies would not do anything to stop their employees exploitation to the locals. Maybe in many ways, some of those big western business practice is another form of colonisation. Believe it, I have seen plenty of this. And you wonder why the westerners, especially the American are so much hated by the people of the third world countries?

    Compare to the western expats, the Chinese men are much more displined. They are welcomed and accepted by the locals.

  150. Just a thought

    July 26, 2008 at 4:44 am

    @DB

    I was thinking about the same thing before – how people seems to think of this as a clear cut bad foreigner “rich” man and a good China “poor” women…

    Couldn’t it be the other way round as in it is the women from China who are preying on foreigner males whom they thought are richer (be it true or false) eagerly and willingly?

    What if the China women is well educated, well heeled, rich, young and pretty but is willing to date a comparatively poorer, older, less educated WESTERN male, perhaps, for the sake looking more “prestigious” or “high class”?

    We all know that “white skin” is generally regarded as more “fashionable” and “prestigious” in China. That may be a stereotype but many people in China possess this stereotype…

  151. @ Just a thought:

    Interesting thought indeed. However, frankly speaking, I’ve never regarded such a relationship as a Chinese woman “preying on” foreign men. According to my experience, this kind of couple is most widespread among students, i.e. Chinese girls who feel trendy by showing off with a foreign bf. And in most of those cases, it’s a temporary relationship based on mutual consent. There are of course other, less prevalent forms, e.g. successful Chinese businesswoman + foreign attachment, but in those cases I would still argue that both parties are fine with the arrangement, knowing it’s not for good.

    One might have certain reservations about this kind of relationship, but by and large, I can’t see that much that people can complain about. Just my 2 cents…

  152. For the type of temporary relationship or romance game, who has the upper hand? The foreign man or the local girl? If real feelings occur, who has more to loose? Boy always likes to play and girl eventually wants to find that special someone. Some girls might not act that way by being open minded or so called “xiao sa”. Whatever her attitude is, most Chinese girls or women still hold very traditional core by the way they are raised and how the society expect them to be. Some foreign men claimed to “help” the Chinese women break out of the shell, or liberate them from their closed society, but seldom can follow through. Most of them only stay at the level of learning the language, knowing the culture, enrich their life experience. They get what they want from those “brave” Chinese girls, when it is time for them to put real effort, they withdraw, leaving the girls hanging there. Then they move on with a few cheers for the sufferring Chinese ex-lovers’ strenghth to carry on.

    I won’t encourage any Chinese girl to go for this kind of risky game until oneday, Chinese can travel freely to those foreign countries, until oneday, Chinese women are not stereotyped as exotic, submissive, sweet, cute, until oneday that Chinese no longer consider white skin, big nose as higher class.

  153. personally i prefer the topic title changes into “how westerners date with chinese girls in China” or something like “dating drama between chinese and foreigner”, basically shanghai should be the right place for discussing such a phenomenon, but those cramped words such as “shanghainese girl”or “foreigners”, they more or less make me uncomfortable as i start to date with westerners since my 20-year-old, and i realise, generally there are two kinds of westerners surrounding me, looking for true love among oriental ladies or playing with them especially those from china mainland as chinese girls are easy with good skin and younger look. absolutely i feel so sick about the second kind that mentioned above, who are they thinking about theirselves? Once if i found i am dating with such a guy i will dump him immediately. Here, i would like to tell: girls, you are amazing as those from here and there around the world, be confident when you date with foreign guys, be yourself and you will find your guy start to sit up and have a look at you, then you become irresistble…

  154. It seems I am the only negative voice here.

    “Girls start to date with westerners since 20 year old.

    There are two types of westerners.

    One looking for true love, the other play with Chinese girls….”

    That is the chinese girls’ expereince and knowledge about their western dating counter part….

    Does that prove my point?

    Any pro-western dating people out there? Hello????

  155. Nothing wrong with dating westerns. I have been married for 12 years to a Shanghainese girl. I know several other younger American males that would also put forth the same effort I have if they found a nice Chinese girl to spend their life with. BD, I think you have to learn which men are willing to put forth that effort. Although rare, they exist, just as do the young beautiful and truly committed Chinese girls that are not trying to screw over they foreigner.

    The biggest problem is very basic. Chinese people in general don’t trust people outside their own nuclear family. It’s very hard to have a real relationship with someone when then don’t trust you. Westerners on the other hand have grown up in a culture of trust. Because of this very large gap at such a basic level it can take years to develop a solid relationship between a Westerner and a Chinese person. Most are not willing to do what it takes – years of hard work and life-long commitment. Sound too serious? Well it is, and that’s why most of the types of relationships you’re talking about eventually fail.

  156. I didn’t say there is anything wrong to date westerners. What’s wrong is the westerners knowing full well they are taking advantage of the niave and eager chinese girls but date them anyway. They know their pockets and passports are the shining stars that shadows their inability to score young girls back home. What’s wrong is the chinese girls knowing full well their desire of better-off life without hard work, shut themselves in the bedroom, typing on the keyboard all night long, posting their beautified pictures and pretend to be loving and sweat, ,or hanging out in the western bar, dress sexy and pretend to be wild and open…

    It is just wrong that those Chinese girls who won’t date Chinese guys and only make themselves to whoever westerners.

  157. This thread just got ridiculous.

  158. Dear, ladies and gentleman,what an interesting webb site this is, so many interesting comments, well as for me i am 54year old and my chinese fiancee who is from shenyang in china is 22 years old we hope to get married next year in Australia,as for me im an airline pilot for Qantas Airyways,well versed in asian culture,i have been divorced for 9 years and have to say the lady i am with is so polite and from a nice family,one thing that highly disturbs me in Australia is lack of woman,when i travel the world i see im most countries men enjoying themselves with a drink,laughing,and displaying enjoyment,in Australia its the opposite,you look side ways at someone and they will take your head off,the aussie aggression is unreal,especialey with the young guys,ive seen it in action a number of times,this all equates to lack of women, so no wonder many aussie gentleman head to asia,are you one of them? Then good on you best of luck!!!!

    Its probably hard for alot people to work out why older men hang out with younger woman, maybe they realey get on,i think this is very personal,ive been to thailand many times and seen the old overweight foreigner walking up the street with the bar girl with absolutley nothing in common, except the wallet, its so easy to pick,but in the end as long as hes happy.

    Every relationship is a gamble,so far what i have observed in china its still rather conservative, the woman are polite, and the people are pleasant,in the end id rather die happy than die ritch and lonley and bymyself, kind regards STEVE

  159. I think that the chinese girls are simply more attracted to western people, since they are different and interresting. I’ve often realized at my school as a kid that when a foriegn person move to my country and joins the school they often become really popular and can find a girlfriend or boyfriend fast. I think it’s because in the human nature we are attracted to something different from ourself. I that that is due to our genetic so we wouln’t be interrested in our own brothers/sisters, but like something different. I think in some cases when young girls marry old men it might be the money or new doors that attracts tho.

  160. tbh its proabby because they are attracted to them…theres no need to get so uptight about it

    im shanghainese…and like u said…developed countries like korea or japan or whatever dont stop marrying them just because they are developed…then its probably something else…not due to money. u are basically assuming that if a person is rich they wont find another raced person attractive and date “chinese gyus’

    u need to be more open minded budong..thats just my opinion..otherwise ur insecure and it reflects the reason hy theyd not prefer chinese guy…tho ur proabbly not shanghainese chinese…so i assume most shanghainese wouldnt consider u

  161. This is a question that I too have been pondering.

    This is a phenomenon that is hapenning around the world, not just in Shanghai.

    I have even blooged about this recently at http://interacialmarriage.blogspot.com; where I stated:

    Why so few western women with chinese men?

    Is it because western women are racist?

    Or is it perhaps because chinese men are racist?

    Or maybe just something less sinister, like opportunity or cultural obstacles?

    In short, I don’t know the answer, but even though it is now common place to see a western man with a chinese wife, it is a rare sight indeed to see a chinese man with a white/western wife.

    This does in fact concen me somewhat. My son, although not Chinese, does have some recognisable asian features. I would hope however that when he grows up that his choice in women is not limited by something like his racial features.

    I would hope, as I had been lucky enough, for my son to be accepted by women no matter their race, and no matter his.

  162. Well, as a Shanghainese…. I do think average american young guys are a little more handsome and outgoing then Chinese or Shanghainese specifically.. And, more importantly, Shanghainese people indeed have better education, richer, more generous, better in English, and generally very nice… Shanghainese girls are awesome in their own ways, smart academically and funny in life. Shanghainese young women in US are generally more attractive in various ways, not only for appearance, then the average female.

  163. Perfect is Complete. Complete does not want something because it is not lacking.

    Imperfect means incomplete and therfore is always looking for something missing. Do you look outside of your group?

  164. I’m a 36 year old american teaching english here in Shanghai. One of the people I work with is an administrator at my school. He’s Pakistani and married a Shanghai girl. They’ve been married for over 5 years and so far so good. I also met a true deadbeat sadly also from america in his 20’s, (also a teacher but thankfully not at my school) who told me he had already had 6 chinese girls in the last 6 months and proceeded to tell me a story of how he deflowered a young chinese girl and played games with her head. What a piece of s*#t he was. In a city of 30million people there’s something for everyone. If you’re looking for the real-deal long lasting love I think you can find it if you’re vigilant and authentic

  165. Well I just gotta say, its kinda unfair at times.

    I’m a Chinese student in engineering in California, supposedly a highly liberal place in the US. Yet I have a far more difficult time of attracting American girls than American men have of attracting Chinese girls in Shanghai.

    It is not impossible. I’ve dated with Mexican girl before. But never whites or blacks, because they seem to be racist, no offense to generalize anyone, but trying to date a white or black girl as a Chinese, they treat you like an annoyance when you speak to them. And also, it takes huge effort on my part, to seek girls of other races out, and to talk to them as an interesting and confident person. I don’t have much free time. I am either teaching or in the lab 5 days a week for 10+ hours per day, so to even go out dating is a very large burden on me.

    The whites in Shanghai, forgive me if I am being racist by accident, do not have to put such an effort out! The girls come to them, they don’t need to go to the girls. While I’m working 50 hour weeks minimum, most English teachers in China seem to have huge amounts of time to play around.

    The contrast is like night and day. They can be 50+ years old, dating 22 year old girls. I’m a 25 year old, dating 25 year old girls. No offense to anyone, but I am educated, yet some of those whites in Shanghai could be only high school graduates. They can sit in a bar, and have multiple girls go to them. I have to go to a large party, be a nice man, maybe get rejected 2-3 times before success, or maybe rejected 100% of the time. I keep in shape by exercising every few hours in the office. Not enough of course but I have a under 75 kg weight, 170 cm height. They can be 100 kg, 180 cm, super fat and unattracted, no shaving. Yet who is more successful in the dating game?

    What is the difference? It isn’t that my IQ is lower. I’m not ugly. So why? My conclusion is, there’s a race problem going on, that has been caused by the color of my skin, and the color of the skin of white expats in China. I came to US expecting a free and open country but in so many ways it is far more repressive than China is. I used to want to seek American girls out, but I give up. Just moving back to China after my time is up, because it is painful to see that my efforts are not worth being born the right skin color.

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