I am not a Big Fan of Hate – Part II

I posted the first part of this article – I am not a Big Fan of Hate…. I didn’t plan to write the second part, but the hot discussion (52 comments in a week) urged me not to let it go. It is a controversal topic, but also an opportunity for people around the world to express, to listen and to understand about history, war and peace.

Before I start the discussion, I have to put some disclaimers here. Please read before continue and especially before you post a comment.

Please try to be open, try to listen and think before you argue what you believe in, and try to be respectful to others

You are welcome to post your thoughts as a comment. Feel free to disagree with me or anyone else, but do NOT conduct any personal attack. If I found any comment that is attacking someone else as a person, or a nation, instead of his/her opinion, I will have to delete it for the sake of a healthy discussion. The rule is much more strict due to the controversy nature of the topic.

Enough for a disclaimer. Here are my thoughts. It does represent anyone else. Just my view of the world.

On History

I don’t want to pretend to know history, and I don’t want anyone to pretend that they know everything inside out. Everyone just know what they were told, and never know what they are not told yet.

Personally, I admit that the younger generation in China, me included, don’t know the history of China well. For my fellow citizens in China, wait a minute to fight back when you hear something you don’t agree. Just wait a minute to do that, because there are big part of history of China missing in our history book too.

This is my personal experience. I was so shocked during my three weeks in New York in 2004. I saw different versions of the same history which tell totally different story. I don’t completely believe in any of version yet, but the difference itself made me think deeply about what on earth the truth is.

In the past two years, I started to read books I don’t read before, and think hard about matters I didn’t think. What I do is to try to understand more. I don’t argue as I was before, since if the evidence part of the argue was what I was taught. When I started to doubt what I were taught, I need sometime (maybe several years) to re-establish what I believe in. It is the same for people in any country – Japan, U.S., European country – any country if they find another version of history they believe in.

It is painful to accept an another version of history of his/her own country. People tend to refuse to accept anything that is different from what they are taught when they were young. It requires both courage and wisdom to accept it.

On the textbook issue of Japan, I can imagine how a normal young person in Japan (maybe another blogger in Tokyo?) feel when they realize their country ever committed huge crime in another country. He/she may never know that before. I can also imagine how shock a normal person in China will be if he/she was told and convinced about the crime China committed in the past. I know it is painful process, but people have to go through it if we want peace in the future and don’t repeat the dark part of the history again. This is why I insist to open a communication channel instead of spreading out hate.

On War

In the discussion in the first part this article, people talked about war. Recently I watched some movies, and books about WWII. In the Germany v.s. other European countries war, for example, Hitler should be the enemy of not only other countries, but also of German people themselves. When we talk about history, we should not only complain about Germany. German people also victim of the war. It was the people who started the war that need to be complained, sentenced, and punished, not the people. They were taught about how bad Jew are, just as we were taught how people in some countries are.

What I worry about the current China is, hate spread like virus, and people believe by hating other countries, they demonstrate patriotism. The situation is so similar to Germany and Japan before WWII. If you ask me, I would stand out and stop the hate. I know many people will throw stones to my window in the current situation, but I keep doing that, because I believe it is the right thing to do for a better future of the country.

People hate because they are taught to hate. Those who taught the people to hate the other countries are dangerous. People who claim by devoting their lives to whatever the government told them to do are dangerous. Think of those Japanese soldiers and German soldiers in WWII – they claimed they love their country. Their love were so deep that they are even willing to kill thousands to demonstrate their hate. It happened in Japan, it happened in Germany, and please don’t happen again in China. This is what I read from history.

I don’t want to pretend to know history well. I just want to think independently, assembly the limited information I gathered, and seek to be closer to the truth.

Thanks for the comments on this blog. During the last four years, you may saw many comments related to history and to current China. Emotionally, I didn’t feel comfortable when people point their fingers to China (it is common reaction, isn’t it?), but it also gave me opportunities to check out why people say so, what version of history they read, and which version is more likely to be true.

On Love or Hate

The hate dominate logic already caused problems in China. For example, the discrimination of people in other places is a social problem. Some people in Shanghai don’t like people outside Shanghai. It is also true in Beijing, and many other cities. “Shanghai people or Beijing people, which is better?” This kind of discussion is hot on BBS, and is guaranteed to have 100+ replies whenever it is raised. People believe there must be a right answer. There is NO right answer because the question itself is wrong.

I love my family. It does not mean I have to hate my neighbour. I am proud about what people in Shanghai archived, but don’t perceive it as I look down upon people in other region. Can I love all? Why I have to choose only one and hate others?

I never hide my pride to be part of the amazing country of China, and being who I am. But it does not mean I cannot appreciate other countries.

OK. That are some of my random thoughts. I experienced hard time to figure it out, and still seeking for a better answer to many questions.

Your thoughts?

74 Comments

  1. “The history is like a little tamely girl, you can dress up her as you like.”…Said by a famous chinese poet

  2. “The very concept of objective truth is fading out of the world. Lies will pass into history.” – George Orwell

    Pardon my language in the old thread. My only message is that nationalism is dangerous.

  3. A Chinese folk song lyrics; “When friends are visiting, we treat them with good wine. When devils are coming, we are ready for them with a hunting musket.”

  4. Jianshuo,

    you know who I am because you are the only one who can see my emaill add (since I use different names depending on my mood).

    I agree with what you are saying in this second post and I stand by my view/ belief that patriotism is reversed discrimination. For centuries and centuries, we have had the same sad story repeating in different parts of the world – some idoitic nationalist used “patrioitism” to spread hatred and inevitably launch wars on other nations/ civilisations/ tribes. What is scary is not about people NOT KNOWING history but about people who choose to DENY history. We all know the consequences of that.

    One of my Chinese classmate (he’s one of my closest friend actually) told me how hard it was for him to come face to face with another version of history here. He said it was totally different from what he learnt as a kid in China and he took great interest in finding out the truth by starting to read history texts/ literatures (not only textbooks) documented by other countries. Most synchronised with what Australia is teaching, the Chinese version don’t, however when he tries to introduce the “truth” or even so much as tries to discuss history with his family and friends back home, they all called him a “traitor” who forgets his roots and that that he can never be “white”.

    China has lost touch with the real meaning of “patriot” and “traitor” and something needs to be done immediately to stop the epidemic of hate amongst it’s youth. How can a developing country develop healtily admist widespread hatred that they see thru dust (just like how healthy can a child be growing up in a family of heavy smokers? ooh…realise the analogy?).

    It is good good that you have dedicated a section of your blog to discuss this issue so at least some Chinese youth (and probably youths of other nations) can start to think objectively about history and not be taught to see what they are told to see.

    Regards,

    EXXXXE

  5. Hi Jianshuo,

    Since you mentioned Hitler, can you tell me what you and the general population in China think of Mao? As far as I am concerned, he is the biggest joke in modern China’s history. And it amazes me that he is still being highly revered today as a great hero after all the hedious crimes he commited against humanity. In my honest opinon, this guy is worst than Hitler. Do most Chinese realy know what this guy had done? Or what?

    Regards,

    Elaine

  6. There no point instill hatred feeling to the young generation. Education shall be taught as a guideline to the next generation so that they learn what is called “suffering” and make sure they don’t do it to others. And also a person should learn what painful is this lesson and hope that it won’t happened to them.

    Let me share my experience with an World War 2 P.O.W. This P.O.W was mistaken a westerner becuase of his look when Japan invaded Asean. No one can believed the “suffering” he had gone through. Part of his body was skinned with his eye wide open! Later, he was pardoned by the Emperor. From there, he learnt suffering and learnt how to overcome this pain and move on with his life. He realised that learning to “PARDON” for someone mistake is the greatest feeling in his life.

    This enlightenment has make his life journey more colourful because he already able to unload the heavy hatred feelings that he was carrying.

    I do believe learn to forgive and learn from mistake will make a person life more colourful. Try this yourself… you might unload some weights behind your brain and looking forward a happier day when you wake up the next morning :)

  7. Devil..? Who is the devil?

    Everyone of us has the evil side of us where are our actions might be dislike (consider evil) by others.

    I am sure you have some dislike about others (attitude, behavious, etc). The same thing goes around… others MIGHT NOT LIKE YOU too… cos you might be “the evil” to them… (not a personal attack… I am quoting an example)

    Here, again I will say… learn to forgive and pardon is how you can remove the evil perspective from different point of view in looking into a matter.

  8. I read about a chinese saying:

    in French ” Le peuple est difficile à gouverner quand il est trop savant”

    in English should be something like “it is hard to govern the population if this population have knowledge”

    Someone know the real Chinese saying ?

  9. Elaine, this is my observation of Mao.

    When I was young, Mao was treated as the father of the country, and everyone treat Mao as God. I did. When I was in grade 4 in primary school (in 1986), a teacher mentioned that Mao is not 100% correct. Even great person like Mao made some small mistakes. You know, for a boy at only 10, there is no distiction between right or wrong. I just repeated what I heard, and someone laughed at me, and said I am dangerous and act like an anti-revolutionist. Basically, these days, Mao for most younger generation in China is still a hero. During the National holiday, big banner saying “Long Live the Chairman Mao’s thinking” still hang high in the middle of the Xujiahui Square – about 10 meters high. My guess is, if you ask 10 persons, more than half will say Mao is a great person.

    For me? I don’t think so… The history around Mao was still a well-kept secret that people don’t know.

  10. Re:

    A Chinese folk song lyrics; “When friends are visiting, we treat them with good wine. When devils are coming, we are ready for them with a hunting musket.”

    ==============================

    This is not a pure Chinese folk song. The name of the song is My Motherland, written in 1956 by Qiao Yu. Please pay attention to the history background of this song. The song was in the film Shang Gan Ling. The film described the brave soldiers in the Korea War.

    Leifeng said, “we should treat enemies as ruthless as autumn wind beat the leafs”. Under the name of enemy (or hate), look like the stupid things we did and are doing.

    Just my 2 cents.

  11. Here in the America, we do not forgetting things easily, when we were attacked on 9/11, we go after our enemies. We hunt them done one by one and we do not stop until the job gets done.

    When Japs raid on Pearl Harbor on the 7th of December 1941, we did not forgive them. We fought back with all our strength and we did not stop until a total victory had been achieved. We still have occupying forces on their island today. We tread our enemies worse than “treat enemies as ruthless as autumn wind beat the leafs.” What we have achieved is peace with our former enemy for the last 60-years and are counting. What we have done is that you will never see a picture showing an American child crying next to his/her dead parent’s body in front of their burning house.

    So come to USA visiting us on 9/11 and 12/7 each year. Let me show you around what we do here.

  12. ILoveYouToo, I admire you patriotism and loyalty towards your own country. USA need people like you to stay strong.

    Do you actually aware the causes of the Pearl Habour and war on terror and who was provoking it?

    History have taught us many lessons to prevent us to repeat the same in the future, but to my amaze, many history books today have been white washed to become a story books.

  13. Elaine

    I am not sure about JianShuo’s observation of people’s attitude towards Mao. At least amongst friends and colleagues I interact with, most of them were born in the 70’s, Mao is never a heroic figure. Although none of us has direct memories of the bad things he had done, but it is never a secret that very bad things had happened when he was ruling China. I do not know how younger generations think of him though. But I can imagine that the older generations would have stronger negative feelings if not hatred towards him. My parents always avoid talk about Mao and the Culture Revolution because of the bad memories it brings up.

  14. To Jian Shuo Wang:

    I mostly agree with you, I wish more Chinese are open minded like you. I just disagree on two points:

    —“Everyone just know what they were told”: In western countries we know what we have learn at school AND what we have read elsewhere (written by people free to work on history, find facts, and with different opinions) in China you learn what you are taught at school and if you want to read more stuff by yourself… the information available is again propaganda and the official version (because if someone what to really study history and dig out some facts… he will have big trouble with the police and his witting will be as much as possible destroyed)

    —“Emotionally, I didn’t feel comfortable when people point their fingers to China (it is common reaction, isn’t it?)”………. Yeah most of Chinese can not accept criticism…..Many of them can not even see that if you criticism Chinese government do not mean you criticism all chinese people…. In France for example, French are the first to complain about France, and we learn a lot (too much?) about the dark side of France history. So if someone criticisms France for history, we are not shocked, if he criticisms about some French habits we agree or disagree, or make fun with them… but we discuss, reply, give arguments… I sometime fell that most of Chinese react with strong emotion, because they feel they loose face, and mostly because they have no argument to give… Except the reply “can you prove 100% what you say is true”… this enable them to escape facing the fact that most of the thing they have been taught is propaganda and that it is very far away from the reality.

    For Mao:

    Just look to facts, before 1949 Taiwan and China mainland had the same government… then as long as Mao was alive China mainland developed very few… and Taiwan developed a lot.

    At the beginning of his rule Mao did the great leap forward (result dozen of millions people dying, mostly because of human policy and a few because of weather). It was such a disaster that Mao loose real control of the government (but remain an image) then china improve a little, then to take back the power he starts the cultural revolution (millions people dying, millions tortured, millions antic objects destroyed, and a generation without real education). Then he passed away… and only two years later… china open… and start booming like crazy. Strange coincidence no ? Ha yes, he also dislikes western countries (the enemies), he totally brainwash the people (much more than now), and so one…

    To ILoveYouToo:

    You have a typical American way of speaking: “let hunt them down”…. With my European way… I will tell you that if to destroy one enemy (one terrorist now) you create 10 of them (there has never been so many people dying because of terrorist than after USA react to 9/11)… You failed !

  15. Hi Frenchy,

    you just reminded me that Marx was a French wasn’t he? And he was the one who first proposed Socialism yet French are not stupid enough to put his theory into practice. We all have a choice in deciding what is right/ wrong, smart or stupid. And it’s not disgraceful to admit one’s wrong in order to learn from experience (in this case, history). What is disgraceful is to deny that you are wrong (again, in this case, deny history) that we (as a human race) failed altogether in achieving peace.

    I don’t totally agree with this saying but I thought it is interesting:

    Here it goes…

    “A fool learns from experience while a genius learns from others’ experiences”

    PS: Wonders what would a person who never learn be called? Retard, idiot???

    Regards,

    Elaine

  16. “Le peuple est difficile à gouverner quand il est trop savant”

    Hah. Post of the week.

    People with knowledge realise the stupidity of politics. That’s why they are the first to die under a new government. Nationalism, in the end, is the enemy of civilisation; every revolution murders the rational people first.

  17. Another question for you Jianshuo though it might spark off a lot of hot debates (both positive and negative).

    Why are there so many women in China who are dying to marry foreigners (mostly westerners but also Asians from developed countries like Japan, Singapore, Taiwan …you can’t call HK a country but yeah, HK as well? I don’t see as many Chinese man marrying foreign women.

    It is a “social trend” or real love? Most of these women are in their early 20s while their “partner” are at least in their 40s (from observations, for course I don’t know their exact age).

    Would like to hear your views on this.

  18. Hello All!

    To Elaine:

    ===> Sorry…. Karl Heinrich Marx was German (His name is a typical German Name…. and not all the famous person can not be French :P)

    ===> For the young Chinese girls who date old foreigner… real love ?? Hahahaha, let me laugh…. Simply: Money, and hope to get a foreign passport. And why these foreigners accept ? Fresh “meat” !

    But no need to look at these foreigners, I have never see so many young a beautiful girls with old, fat, rich men than in China… Most of the time with Chinese people… and back to Europe people will look down to these rich man… as we look down to these old foreigners who do that in China… But here… No big problem as long as the young girl is with a old Chinese… It prove that the girl “succeed” (she get a rich man) and that the man succeed (he his rich)…. But if she is with a old foreigner…. then most of Chinese find that abnormal >_<

    Another Chinese saying:

    老牛吃嫩草 = lao niu chi nen cao = Old bull eat fresh grass. used to say that old guys like to f**k young girls ;-)

    PS: As a typical French, I always say more that what I truly think…I mostly say what I think… But the way I say include some “provocation” to push people to react :P

  19. Shanghai people or Beijing people, which is better?”

    without offence after working and living in shanghai , for over 4 yrs, i shall admit the the word xiao nin make sense and its not a racial issue, but a mark that show how certain people are developed or not… sorry for the non shanghainese… but we cant hide the true…

    actually being a lao wei and according to the concession that anyone who is not from Shanghai roots is a Xiao Nin, i suppose to be a farmer, but then the shanghainese admit that not all the lao wei are xiao nin… definetely a northern mentality, style of life, way of dress, system of thinking, learning times and quality and quantities, definetely show that there is the difference.. and nothign can hide it…

    once again pls no offence, reality is never an offence, but a point of improvement.

  20. @TheFrenchy:

    ===> For the young Chinese girls who date old foreigner… real love ?? Hahahaha, let me laugh…. Simply: Money, and hope to get a foreign

    passport. And why these foreigners accept ? Fresh “meat” !

    The question was “many women in China who are dying to marry foreigners”, not “dating old foreigners”, which is something completely

    different and happens everywhere in the world.

    Anyway, money might of course be the reason, but then, there are so many rich Chinese men which are “simpler to deal with” from a cultural

    point of view for a Chinese girl than those strange laowais.

    Call me naive, but I think the main reason is curiosity and that men from a foreign country are supposed to be more of a gentleman and

    more respectful to a woman (not that this is always true).

    About Chinese men, I think the reason why they stick to Chinese girls is that, first, there are not so many girls from foreign countries in China, second, most of the girls seem not to be interested in getting a Chinese man (maybe for a cultural matter?) and third, the men

    simply find Chinese girls more attractive.

    About the foreigners, well, same reason as above: 1) Not so many girls from foreign countries, 2) Chinese women are way too attractive.

    My 2 cents,

    Stan.

  21. TheFrenchy. Here in America, we fight our enemies. We don’t wave white flag at them.

    stenphen. Our principle is “If you don’t mess with me, I wouldn’t mess with you”.

    Get it?!

  22. Thanks Frenchy for correcting me about Karl Marx..but there you go, for something that originated in the west, it wasn’t very well recieved at all (proving not “western things are good –> same for the men these women marry)

    Instead of hearing the view points of foreigners here ( which I already know coz i am also foreign) can any Chinese men explain this phenomenon to me? Why? Why? Why? Especially since this “social trend” seems to be more Shanghai than any other parts of China.

    Don’t give me the same crap that this is because Shanghai womens are more “open” and “westernised”… we all know that is not true….I don’t see how HK is any less westernised than Shanghai (and HK is also culturally chinese). I lived in Hk for 1 year between 1996-1997 so I know… Japan is not like that either, nor is Korea… its always Shanghai. So why? Because if it is for money then Beijing women, Canton women, Nanking women etc should all be the same (if not more foreign-men-chasing because they are poorer)? So agian, why Shanghai women?

  23. “TheFrenchy. Here in America, we fight our enemies. We don’t wave white flag at them.”

    Most countries fight their enemies. From Napoleon to de Gaulle, the French aren’t weak either, it’s just English tradition to make fun of France. ;) Don’t forget that it’s with French military assistance that we became independent in the first place.

  24. ILoveYouToo, If you really don’t mess with us, then the world shall live happily thereafter.

    Elaine, Check this out

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendi_Deng

  25. “If you really don’t mess with us, then the world shall live happily thereafter.”

    You got be kidding me, stephen! Let the Nazi, Japs, Commies, and Taliban running the world? You can’t be serious!

    Ben, thank you very much for pointing out my joke. We like French. They are good people. That is why we got their country back, not once, but twice!

  26. “If you really don’t mess with us, then the world shall live happily thereafter.”

    Only responsible countries deserve to live happily hereafter. A world with countries like North Korea is like a neighborhood with murderers on the loose. Even the most liberal societies would punish murderers; why is this so difficult on a global scale?

  27. “Do you actually aware the causes of the Pearl Habour and war on terror and who was provoking it?”

    The Pearl Harbour attack was provoked by Japanese atrocities in China, which prompted the United States to enact an oil embargo. From the American standpoint, it made perfect sense, at least from today’s perspective. Countries that violate human rights, such as North Korea, are subjected to scrutiny. Too bad we did that ourselves in Iraq.

    The “war on terror” was in response to radical Islam. Some people think Israel’s existence somehow causes all the conflicts, but that is not the case. Radical Islam is a dangerous mode of thinking, regardless of any other factors. Dangerous, just like the Christian Crusades were.

  28. to stan:

    Elaine said: “Most of these women are in their early 20s while their “partner” are at least in their 40s” So, I reply about the young chinese girls with old foreign guys…

    To Elaine: Why Chinese women with foreign guys?

    For the young Chinese with young foreigner, It seems totally normal… foreigners are not so numerous in China, they are different, so some girls are attracted (and some are attracted by the money and passport).

    For Shanghai: more foreigners here, and the Shanghainese girls have the reputation to be very very materialist… and certainly other reasons that I do not know.

    To ILoveYouToo: Hahaha some french bashing… so close to the reality than Tibet history teach in mainland China… and you achieve that without government control… great !

    “If you don’t mess with me, I wouldn’t mess with you”. I never saw Iraq attacking USA ;-)

    Do not fight back, I SURRENDER in front of your powerful arguments :P

    I am also not a big fan of Hate… whatever against Japanese, french, chinese, and so one…

    88

  29. In American history books, I have a feeling that Genghis Khan are highly treated as a great hero. But how many people were killed by his army, by his war? People enjoy talking about his achivement, his conquer, his greatest empire ever in the world, bla bla. What is the difference between him and hitler? Not that much.

  30. Hi Stephan and Frenchy,

    Well, I don’t quite get what you guys are saying from the web-link and other postings. I know for certain that women from China are flocking into the arms of foreign men because of money. I do not have any doubt about that. What I wanted to know is whether Chinese men are aware of this and if the people in China really think/ believe there is true love between such couples.

    My other question was regarding the difference between Chinese men with foreign women as opposed to Chinese women with foreign men. I don’t see as many Chinese men-foreign women couples in comparism to their female counterparts and it almost seems like there is a common belief/ myth that “Chinese men do China proud by marrying foreign women, and Chinese who marry foreign men are a disgrace to China”.

    I am interested because my ex BF is a Chinese and we broke up because of his parents’ belief (his parents hold very “traditional” stereotypes of non-Chinese people depending on where you are from). Even though his parents kept belittling their 27-year-old Chinese neighbour who divorced her husband in China to marry a white, they were absolutely impressed that my ex were together with me (though we eventualy spilt up due to cultural differences). This is something I cannot understand. Is it a reflection of China people’s inferior complex or what?

    My ex is still trying to make our relationship work out but the parents are also trying just as hard to match-make him with the girls from Shanghai (where he was born in). These girls have never met my ex before but just the simple fact of him holding an Aussie passport is enough to make them take the risk in marrying a stranger. Weird!!!

    PS: Sorry WJS to turn your blog into something so private and totally unrelated to your topic.

    Elaine

  31. Elaine, your ex BF is a Australian Born Chinese. Right ?

    I also think that there is this common belief.

    There are many Foreign guy Chinese girl couple…

    There are a also foreign girl with foreign born Chinese guy.

    There is nearly no Foreign girl Chinese guy couple.

    So, “the problem” come from Chinese guys… not Western girls as they can accept foreign born Chinese BF.

    By the way, not all Chinese girls are with foreigner for money ! So real couple with love can happen!

    Japanese Chinese couple:

    To come back a little to the subject why not speak about the way Chinese see Japanese (for BF / GF) ?? anything special ? any problem with the family ? with the friends ? with the “Chinese patriot” ?

    Black people:

    I feel that many Chinese see black people as nearly non human. And are horrified only thinking about them in a bed with on black (girl or guy).

    88

  32. Hi Frenchy,

    Nope. my ex is a China-born. He came to Australia when he was 10 so I can pretty much see the differnces between his and his parents’ thinking. I am also not “western” nor “asian” by the normal/ usual standard. I am somewhere in between as I am Southeast Asian (Singapore-born) and come from a complex blood line of French, Portuguese, Taiwanese, Peranakan and Javanese/ Malay lineage. Race is not an issue with me as you can see. I only consider myself as Singaporean.

    Anyway, lets get back to the topic on cross-cultural couples. I do agree with you that China people (Note: I refrain from using words like “chinese” because I want to distingusih Taiwanese, HongKongers and foreign-born-Chinese from China-born-Chinese as each of these group of people tend to think very differently from one another). Personally, I think China may be developing economically but not socially. They still follow a sort of white-yellow-brown-black skin colour hierachy and believe that “blacks are slaves”. Chinese (China people) tend to be very critcal and unforgiving of others. Hence, they frown on “their” women being seen with “Black chimps”. Very stereotypical.

    Someone proposed that there are fewer foreign women-chinese men couples because there are more foreign men than foreign women in China but that doesn’t answer why a Chinese man does the country proud when he marries a foreign women and not the other way round (Chinese look down on China girls who married foreigners).

    PS: In Australia, I know this girl who told me outright that her only “goal’ in life is to “marry up” and hence her family pooled together all their family fortune to send her overseas so she can meet “rich men” (foreign males). She considers it disgraceful if she doesn’t end up marrying a foreigner after being overseas for so many years and has confessed that she has slept with dozens of foreign “old man”. Right now, she is comemplating marrying another China born because he is getting his Aussie PR in another 2 months time. Her plan? Marry this guy for 2 years so she can become a PR and then divorce him. And guess what? She is from Shanghai…

    Recently, I met another 2 such girls..and they are all Shanghainess…. is that a coincidence or what?

    Elaine

  33. Where is Jian Shuo?? I am waiting for him to express his views…LOL ;p

  34. Hi, Jian Shuo is listening. :-) For the whole day – a 38 hour day, I was travelling from Shanghai to San Jose, and now it is 2:00 AM San Jose time. This is what I am going to do: go to bed first (to kill jet lag) and be back with this thread. It is obviously not something anyone can explain in short time. Meanwhile, keep the discussion going. It is a good topic for me to start another entry on it.

  35. Have a good rest Jian Shuo.

    Good night ^_^

  36. Elaine, that is a beautiful name!

    But get hold of yourself. Your problem is lacking of self-confidence. No matter how your look is, men like girls with high self-esteem. You will find the love of your life. Trust me on this! So get out of here. You will not … by hide behind of you keyboard and nagging.

  37. Ben,

    “The Pearl Harbour attack was provoked by Japanese atrocities in China”

    How come US ambassador to Japan Joseph Kennedy (father of JFK) was able to broker war supplies to Japan until summer 1940?

    How come FDR did not imposed trade embargo with Nazi Germany, after all FDR and Churchill are ‘friends at the navy’.

    How come Lend-lease agreement did not extended to China prior to Pacific War, may be FDR and Madam Chiang had not established friendship?

    How come ‘Flying Tiger’ reached China after Pearl Harbour, and the air defence before that was aided by Soviet Union until June 1940.

    The US Congress had voted to stay neutral at both European and Asian war and FDR had to comply.

    The trade embargo with Japan by US and British was a result of conflict of the colonial interest at Indo-Chine (now known as Vietnam+Cambodia+Loas) at the end of the Battle of France which occurred at summer 1940.

  38. Stephen, why can’t you be more like theFrenchy gracefully admits when you made a lousy argument.

  39. ILoveYouToo, I guess you like watered down version of histroy.

  40. This is the first warning to “ILoveYouToo”. I have saw personal attack in your comment. To keep the discussion atmosphere, please be sure words like “lousy argument”, or “get out of here” never appears on this board again. Otherwise, I have to delete all your comments you made.

    Show your respect. Discuss instead of attack.

  41. “How come US ambassador to Japan Joseph Kennedy (father of JFK) was able to broker war supplies to Japan until summer 1940?”

    The fact that he had to try says something. Allies naturally support each other; that it took effort to send supplies says something about the worsening relation between the two countries.

    “How come FDR did not imposed trade embargo with Nazi Germany, after all FDR and Churchill are ‘friends at the navy’.”

    So far as I know, we weren’t exporting any oil to Nazi Germany in 1940. You don’t need an embargo when there is no trade. Sure, IBM and other technical firms traded with the Nazis, but those goods were not included in the Japanese embargo either.

    “How come Lend-lease agreement did not extended to China prior to Pacific War, may be FDR and Madam Chiang had not established friendship?”

    How could anybody trust such a weak China to repay the favour afterwards? Britain was in a position of trust. The whole country, not just one (wo)man.

    “How come ‘Flying Tiger’ reached China after Pearl Harbour, and the air defence before that was aided by Soviet Union until June 1940.”

    The Flying Tigers were a volunteer group, not ordered to fight in China. Mercenaries, if you will.

    “The US Congress had voted to stay neutral at both European and Asian war and FDR had to comply.”

    The US Congress was isolationist at the time. It did not want anything to do with other countries. FDR had a superior moral judgment, and HE pushed through the trade embargo.

    “The trade embargo with Japan by US and British was a result of conflict of the colonial interest at Indo-Chine (now known as Vietnam+Cambodia+Loas) at the end of the Battle of France which occurred at summer 1940.”

    Never heard that one before. So the embargo was caused by Vichy France? Can you explain that? I don’t believe it.

  42. Ouch!

    Sorry, I got carried away. It won’t happen again.

  43. Ben,

    During 1940 summer, the battle of France concluded, and the French government surrendered to Germany, according to clause in the instrucment France must hand over all the oversea colony to Germany including Indo-Chine.

    Germany at that time did not have a naval force strong enough to escort ground troops to Indo-Chine. British on the other hand controlled the entire Indo peninsula from Singapore all the way to Burma and into India. She sees German occupied Indo-Chine would post a threat to her colonial interest in the region, and for political reason, she cannot and would not launch an incursion against the France garrison stationed there, otherwise the battle of Indo-Chine will begin before the battle of Britain.

    British solution to the crisis was to invade US to occupy the France colony so that US can protect British interest in the region.

    In the view of US, Indo-Chine has much strategy significance than the Phillippine, the task of annexation was left to the commander-in-chief Douglas Macarthur stationed in Phillippine.

    Macarthur at that time was an army general and has no ships,

    before he can order enough battle ships from San Diego to carry out the task, out of everybody expectation, Japanese land troops already entered Indo-Chine from China with German decree.

    Macarthur was furious and since he has friends in Washington, a trade embargo was instituted against Japan for the advance into Indo-Chine.

    This is the cause of the Pacific War to the best my research.

  44. ILoveYouToo,

    I suppose you thought I was in China when you said “get out of here” and not get out of this discussion?). Anyway, I am not in China. My problem is NOT being with a Chinese guy, it’s with Chinese-in-laws! By the way, there are nice Chinese people (man) too but the cultural differnces make it harder for cross-cultural relationships to work out, especially if the parents are there to make things worse.

    PS: The argument on history is getting too heated….

    Elaine

  45. “The trade embargo with Japan by US and British was a result of conflict of the colonial interest at Indo-Chine (now known as Vietnam+Cambodia+Loas) at the end of the Battle of France which occurred at summer 1940.”

    “Indo-China” is just a geographical name for countries in South East Asia which are directly adjacent to China, instead of the islands outlaying in the SE-Asia sea and pacific such as Phillipines, Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia. So countries like Burma, Laos, Vietnam and even Thailand can be considered to be “Indo-China” since these are non-island countries attached to mainland Asia (I guess most westerners back then thought of Asia as in China as if Asia and China is one entity; same way most people in Asia thought all westerns speak English… So get past stereotypes :p).

    The term “Indo-China” is STRICTLY GEOGRAPHICAL, not historical so it has nothing to do with China. There were NOT colonised/ annexed by China. Another example would be “Indo-Europe” which is an Asian country called India in the Asia subcontinent.

  46. “The argument on history is getting too heated….”

    That’s the time to call it quits and down a cold beer. :p

    Other-culture in-laws are always a pain in the neck. What if I marry an African woman?

  47. Haha…Ben, you are chinese right? Would your parents interfer if you decide to marry a non-chinese women?

  48. Narh… Ben you are an ABC so you probably are more American than Chinese… My BF don’t have an issue with me being non-chinese…..its the parents.

    Am still waiting for Jianshuo to answer my above questions on Foreign man- chinese women (and vice versa) relationships trend in China..hahah….wanted to know how people in china think of such relationships..and he always have opinons so different from the general population in china…

  49. I’m not technically ABC, unless deciding to work in the US after school counts. Grew up in Shanghai. My parents wouldn’t care – I’m a lot more traditional and conservative than they are. Most parents these days seem surprisingly liberal. The bigger problem is, the rest of my family knows no English, or any other foreign language for that matter.

  50. Oooh….surprise! surprise! I thought you were born and bred in America… Are you shanghainese?

  51. I visited Museum of Flight at Seattle. Although Chinese people should be very thankful to the flying tigers, one also need to know that those pilots were paid 4 times (or 2 times, I forget the exact number, but way more high) wages higher than that if they stayed at home. They were paid by China government then. As I frankly spoke out in my previous comments, economy (in another word, resource: natural resouce, labor, services) issue is the main reason, most times the only reason for war. Why there are many Chinese girls are with froeign(western) guy than foreign(western) girls with Chinese guys, it is also simple: China as whole was and currently being weak in the development of economy and force, which makes Chinese guy not attractive. It is like branding. The media intentionaly or unintentionaly branded western guys are gentle man, polite, rich, romantic, etc, even in many cases are not true at all. McDonald’s Hamburge is not necessarily more tasty or better nutrion than many Chinese dishes, but a Hamburge sells higher price. It’s just because McDonald brands it better. However, if McDonald is not from USA, but from some poor country in Africa or eastern Europe, then it would be harder or impossible to get the brand to its current prestige. All these back to this point, China needs to be rich as whole, not just few cities, few people, needs to be strong enough in military (force), needs some real victories in the battle field, then Chinese guy can be branded as those good things, then you will see …… maybe i even do not need to write these sh*t in English

  52. Dodoisanextinctbird

    November 11, 2006 at 6:36 pm

    To Rick,

    Eastern Europeans (from poor and unedevloped countries) are favoured more than Japanese guys (from a rich Asian country) so it should be obvious that money is not the only factor involved. However, I do agree with your point of view on “Branding”. It’s like stereotyping all western people to be English-speaking and we all know that’s not the case.

    Also, your (socilaist) belief that having a strong military equates to being strong and developed as a nation scares me. That sounds so barbaric and violent. China has a huge military, and I have no doubt about China’s military power. North Korea also has a pretty tough military..and so does Russia but these countries are still poor and undeleveoped. Military develoment in East Europe doesn’t make them any richer or better, just poorer and more undeveloped (with all those wars). China’s advancements are a result of its economic booms, infrastructural and social developments, not military. No way.

    Dodo :)

  53. “Oooh….surprise! surprise! I thought you were born and bred in America… Are you shanghainese?”

    Yes. 我上海人。

    Ironically, military investment is what collapsed the Soviet and North Korean economies. The world would be a better place without strong military forces.

  54. To Elaine:

    you told about one argument which is: “there are more foreign men than foreign women in China” but let forget the total figure and think about the percentage: I think there is around 50-70% of foreigner here are with Chinese girls… and 1-5% of Foreign girls who are with Chinese (I say 1-5 to be nice, because I personally think it is closer to 0.5-1%, I met that once in a few years in China). So that is not the reason.

    To Rick:

    You said: “China as whole was and currently being weak in the development of economy and force, which makes Chinese guy not attractive”

    I am a foreigner, I have speak about this subject to many Foreign girls living in China… And your explanation seem totally wrong for me. Maybe in China one of the most important factor to select your “lover” is his bank account, but I can tell you that most of foreign girls do not really care about that, and look about the relationship they can have.

    Do not forget, there is western girls with foreigner born Chinese…. but so few with Chinese born Chinese living in China… So the problem is not the body, it is not the money (you can see plenty of rich Chinese guy in disco)… According to me, the problems are the cultural difference (different way to see the things, to not repeat what you have been told without thinking, the humor, the cultural background…), and the lack of education of many (spiting, pushing people to enter the bus, littering, etc…)

    88

  55. To Elaine:

    you told about one argument which is: “there are more foreign men than foreign women in China” but let forget the total figure and think about the percentage: I think there is around 50-70% of foreigner here are with Chinese girls… and 1-5% of Foreign girls who are with Chinese (I say 1-5 to be nice, because I personally think it is closer to 0.5-1%, I met that once in a few years in China). So that is not the reason.

    To Rick:

    You said: “China as whole was and currently being weak in the development of economy and force, which makes Chinese guy not attractive”

    I am a foreigner, I have speak about this subject to many Foreign girls living in China… And your explanation seem totally wrong for me. Maybe in China one of the most important factor to select your “lover” is his bank account, but I can tell you that most of foreign girls do not really care about that, and look about the relationship they can have.

    Do not forget, there is western girls with foreigner born Chinese…. but so few with Chinese born Chinese living in China… So the problem is not the body, it is not the money (you can see plenty of rich Chinese guy in disco)… According to me, the problems are the cultural difference (different way to see the things, to not repeat what you have been told without thinking, the humor, the cultural background…), and the lack of education of many (spiting, pushing people to enter the bus, littering, etc…)

    88

  56. I think most of you have overlooked one important factor about the intermarriage in Chinese society, the blessing from parent of the would be groom or bride hold a significant factor in deciding the marriage.

    Most Chinese people do not wish to see their grand-children bearing the family name to be a ‘mix’ (bad for family tradition) and may not able to communicate with them. On the other hand, Chinese bride marrying a Caucasian would meet less opposition from the family, after all she is not longer a member of the family after marriage and will bear the name of her spouse.

  57. To Frenchy,

    Hands up, legs up in support LOL…hahha..I can’t agree more with you. This is one of the main reasons why I had some much problems with my ex’s parents and his relatives. The “social undevelopments” are probably the most significant factors that causes foreign womens to find Chinese men repulsive. I can’t agree more with the spitting and long finger nails, ear digging, toe scratching and stuff. Most foreigners wouldn’t have an much an issue with Chinese from HK. And yessss….I can’t stand the way Chinese men in China listens to their Mama all the time… it is absolutely disgusting… things are slowly changing…but the “tradition of listening to parents” which they call ‘filial piety” is going to take a long while to change. When I said i wanna move out with my ex or put his mom in a nursing home in Shanghai (since she doesn’t like western countries and can only speak Shanghainese) when she gets old, it evoked exggerated emotions from his family side.

    -_-?

  58. To be honest, most of my friends had advised me NOT to go out with a Chinese partly because of the hierachy thingy. In a typical Chinese family, you as a daughter-in-law is NOT considered part of the family. So the Dad is right up at the top, followed by mom, then the son, followed by funny people that pops out of nowhere such as the “auties”, “uncles” and “cousins” and then last of all, you.

    In my relationship with my ex, I was seen as the threat to the mom because she no longer holds any control in the son’s life. To her, I had caused her position in my ex’s heart to sway….and this doesn’t even make sense to me. Can’t she go and bother her husband instead?

    My ex is already 25…….not 15…….

  59. Hello All !

    I underestimated the parents issue for a western girl / Chinese guy couple.

    But not speaking getting married, just speaking about GF/BF, or even one night stand, I am sure full of Chinese guy are willing to be with a Foreign girl (at least to show off in front of their friends). But, so few Foreign girls want… And I believe most of the foreign girls do not try to be with a Chinese, so they do not even think about the parents issues.

    So, the relation with the parents is an issues, that most of western girls do not face (and not even think about) as they do not want to be with a Chinese guy for many other reasons.

    We totally changed the subject of this blog…

    What about the Japanese ?

    ;-)

    Elaine, you are quite interesting, it is nice talking to you :D

  60. Hey Frenchy,

    I am Singaporean. See my post above. LOLx :)

    “I am somewhere in between as I am Southeast Asian (Singapore-born) and come from a complex blood line of French, Portuguese, Taiwanese, Peranakan and Javanese/ Malay lineage. Race is not an issue with me as you can see. I only consider myself as Singaporean”

    And regarding Japanese… I always have this impression that jap guys are more responsible to their family though no doubt a “MCP” hahaha….

    Elaine

  61. To Elaine:

    I know that you are Singaporean ;-)

    If you want to chat my email is thefrenchysh (a.t:) gmail,com

    To everybody:

    I often hear Chinese saying that japanese are abnormal (变态). And the TV is full of serie in which we see the great Chinese communist fighting the evil Japanese…

    Does someone know how Japanese people see Chinese people ?

    88

  62. Hi Frenchy,

    If you can read some chinese then I would recommend you to visit this website http://www.chinaren.com of which I dub “weird news” webpage. Every post on this website is almost hilarious to me, especially the BBS. Apparently, this is the most popular BBS in China and at least 90% of the local undergrads surf this website on a day to day basis. You don’t have to take the content seriously since 99% of them are senseless, if not ridiculous, and from it you would have a rough idea of how much Chinese and Japanese people hate each other.

    Just a note of caution, the Chinese people on that website hate just about everyone who is non-Chinese so you need not take it to heart if they are anti-French as well. I take it with a pinch of salt nowadays whenever I read postings on how pretentious Britons are, how loud Germans are, how masochistic Americans are, how cruel Japanese are, as well as how smelly Frenchs are (assuming this is why France is famous for its perfumery)… and the list goes on. If you decide to have a look at it, just take it as a joke and laugh it off (though you may be surprised that these are people at universities both in China and overseas).

    Elaine

  63. Elaine, If I misinterpreted your situation, please accept my apology. My advice to a friend who failed on their romance is, move on with his/her life. Life is too short to be wasted by DWELLING on the past. You got to focus on the future. Ask around those married couples. Chances are, before one successful relationship can be reached, there were many failed ones.

    On the other hand, do not to be so critical on those Shanghainese girls. The fact is most shanghainese were not born there. They are migrants. They came from all over the place. It is the environment (or you can call it culture) nurtured them to have those distinctive characteristics that are unique to Shanghainese. However, that uniqueness is not limited to Shanghainese girls if we put aside the physiological difference between men and women. Shanghainese Men are exactly the same!

    Stop hoping that you will get a response from certain individuals about their views on your question(s). Chances are that he is not able to offer anything more then others have already said. Besides who want to criticize his/her own characters. You won’t do that neither.

  64. Hi Iloveyoutoo,

    “On the other hand, do not to be so critical on those Shanghainese girls. The fact is most shanghainese were not born there. They are migrants. They came from all over the place. It is the environment (or you can call it culture) nurtured them to have those distinctive characteristics that are unique to Shanghainese. However, that uniqueness is not limited to Shanghainese girls if we put aside the physiological difference between men and women. Shanghainese Men are exactly the same!”

    It is true that Shanghainese are people from neighbourring provinces many generations back but this is not the case for those below 50 years of age (since most were born in SH-> post-WWII). And they are the ones who claim themselves to be different as a group to such an extent that you thought they are non-Chinese… I am not trying to be critical, just objective. At least this is what I observed in SH girls as opposed to other China girls… that is, they generally prefer money to love. Maybe someone can come can change my opinon but until I finally met another SH girl who doesn’t sleep around for the sake of a passport… things are not going to change much.

    “Stop hoping that you will get a response from certain individuals about their views on your question(s). Chances are that he is not able to offer anything more then others have already said. Besides who want to criticize his/her own characters. You won’t do that neither.”

    I’m gave hoping to get response from WJS but I think he’s certainly more liberal than what you thought he was. BTW, he doesn’t have to criticize anyone… Germany apologised for its atrocities on Jews after the WW but i don’t think thats a criticism, its an address to whatever wrongs that need to be address… and WJS’s not Shanghainese anyway…

    Yawn… its 9am here and I haven’t had much of a sleep…awwwwwwwww exam at 11am….. sobs…..

  65. OK. I apologise for the above comment regarding SH girls. But the first SH girl I met in Singapore divorced her husband to marry a local..and guess what? That man was married so she made him divorce his wife by claiming she was pregnant and broke up 2 families in the process.

    The first SH girl I met in USA was my cousin’s neighbour, same story as above.

    The first SH girl I met in Japan was a prostitute. Full stop.

    The first SH girl I met in Sydney told me she is willing to go to bed with ANY foreign men because HER MOM told her to do that…that the ONLY reason why they sent her abroard for an overseas education is for her to KNOW foreign men so she can MARRY up… She’s my classmate at a med school.

    The ones i HK in HK when I was an exchanged student there, home-wreckers…prostitute… and thats it.

    I am not saying all SH girls are like that. I am certain NOT everyone is like that (4 millions of them in SH) but tell me how can I not think of them as home wreckers or cheap slut when you keep bumping into people like that? I don’t want to argue..and I don’t want to stereotypes either… its might be interesting for you to know this is how my other chinese friends (from other parts of china) think of them as well… its not a foreign thing…. the locals think that way too

    YAWN…nuff said…

  66. Hey we totally changed the topic of this discussion thread… lets bring it back to history…. and wars….

  67. Jesus! I didn’t know that is coming. I guess that you do know what you are talking about. I have already lowered my expectation when we are talking about them. But you blow my line out of water. Well, Shame on them then!

    Good luck on your test!

  68. Hey Iloveyoutoo,

    Hehe..I don’t know if thats supposed to be sacastic…but I don’t care…these exams are killing me..awww….and thanks for your “good luck” heheh….i need heaps of them…10.30am… half an hour more b4 exam @_@

    And yes…ignore the typos and grammar…im so deprived of sleep…how lucky am I that medical schools dun look at grammar and language structure…

    YAWN

    WISH ME GOOD LUCK EVERYONE *_*

    Elainre

  69. to TheFrenchy:

    “but I can tell you that most of foreign girls do not really care about that, and look about the relationship they can have”

    IT IS A LIE.

    You are advertising, branding “foreign girls” to those values again.

    I live in America. Look around, almost all beautiful girls are with rich guys. Go to walmart, you find most employees are ugly looking, go to Costco, employees are better looking; employees of Safeway at a rich district usually are much better looking than those at a poor district. Most girls care about money, care about prestiege, care about what ladder you are at the society,no matter they are foreign or Chinese. Please read about all those marriage books written by the western authors, most time money is a big issue to cause problem between husband and wife.

  70. 希特勒和毛泽东问题,你们不是三言两语就能给于肯定和否定的,他们生活的背景与时代的要求,现在的我们只能从历史书本的文字想象出来的,但换做别人,当时的背景根本容不得你有半点的纰漏。

  71. David Roesseau Lee

    December 18, 2006 at 6:50 pm

    Hi JianShuo,

    It seems that you are the Laoda of this forum. I just came back from Beijing and am mesmerised by the place. (Not the spitting though) So been toying with the idea about taking this offer to work in Beijing….. which part of beijing is suitable for foreigner to stay and meet with both locals and other expatriates and what would be the rental like…

    Thanks a zillion

    Dave

  72. TheFrenchy – not meaning to sound condescending, but are you just another white guy in disguise trying to get laid?

    Elaine – not all SH girls are like that, but they do carry that fantastic stereotype: the gold-digging, white man loving, sluts. I am not surprised as it has been well documented. But you know what the problem is? The self-hatred really perpetuates this so called nationalism is the underlying wedge between self-loathe and patriotism. If they can’t love their own skin, how can they even love a country, or any for that matter? But I digressed …

    To say Mao is a hero is to say George W Bush is a scholar. There are so many things which this man has done his people wrong that it’s sickening everyday to see his portrait. He was a back-stabbing, immoral tyrant with no contempt for his friends and his people. At least Hitler loved the Germans. Mao hated the Chinese.

  73. You hit the nail on the head lex

  74. You are a good man jian guo

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *