I am Dreaming about Visiting India

Just had nice dinner of my Indian friend Pranay and Jiby. We spent two days together, when they visited us in our office.

Over dinner, we talked about a lot of politics, and shared about the change in China and India. It is interesting to see how the current Chinese system of a powerful central government can do whatever they want to do, and sacrificing individual rights for growth, and in India to sacrifice development for democracy. I do not agree on the general perception in India that China grows just because of one strong power. Will talk about it later.

At last, I suggested them to use Metro Line #1 to transit to Metro Line #2 at People’s Square and then transit to Maglev train to the Pudong Airport tomorrow morning. It is obvious that the Maglev part is a good suggestion, but transiting at People’s Square may not be as impressive for my India friends, who are used to the train station at Mumbai!

I am also impressed by the high house price (both rent and purchase) in Mumbai. I started to worry about my travel expense there.

22 thoughts on “I am Dreaming about Visiting India

  1. Singh

    “Sacrifice development for democracy” – only a bigoted Chinese guy would think that. Democracy hasn’t been India’s sole problem. Not having a party with enough power has. But that has just changed. Just you watch India’s GDP rocket higher than China’s next year, then you’ll see how India is better than China, you little pompous Shanghai boy.

  2. Mary

    Singh, Singh, Singh oh baby !

    I do not think Jian Shuo is either pompous or bigoted. Actually, he is quite right. Democracy does not exist (read Noam Chomsky: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041029.htm) nor does it work: look at the state of the economy !

    Keep in mind China’s population: bring in Unions (way to powerful in democracies), freedom for each and all (a guy was recently arrested for the 11th time for drinking and driving: he finally killed someone and is now joing to jail) etc. and you will have one big, massive mess.

    The strength eventhough not perfect, is one powerful, central government. That’s what China has and watch out for the next 10 years: China will be in command.

  3. Singh

    So I have to read one book and that is it. Oh, and is your comment “China will be in command” a statement or a threat? Both you and this Wangjiangherpesore know nothing about what you’re talking about and I doubt you’ve ever been to India. Your “China is superior” tactics are not only boring, but racist and incorrect. You really think Democracy is bad? Your just stupids being ruled by Communists who wont even let you decide by giving YOU a vote. You don’t even count in running your own country. Thats sad. The stupid is you dont even know it.

    India’s economy, it is at 6.1% right now growth and without the nonsense of a 4trillion yuan injection, which is the only reason China isn’t showing 3%. Plus your stock market is 90% government owned SOEs and your enterprenouers can’t get bank loans. Your the ones whose economy is in the shits.

    “China Rules” yeah, right. Ha ha ha. You can’t even accept your own people if they’re the wrong color: http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens/

    Come to India. See how people can live free.

  4. Mary

    “being ruled by Communists who wont even let you decide by giving YOU a vote.”

    Hitler was elected by a democratic system…

    Look at how the US bring the “great democracy” in foreign countries.

    Look at what they have done and who they backed in South America a few decades ago.

    China never “visited” neighbours and tried to change a country’s regime.

    Give China time and you will see. I just wish you had less anger and more openess, less cheap shots and more of a diplomatic keyboard.

  5. Jian Shuo Wang

    To make my point in the original post more clear: the perception of my Indian friends is that China is “and sacrificing individual rights for growth, and in India to sacrifice development for democracy”. I made it very clear in the post that I do NOT agree with this argument.

    China’s growth was not driven by “non-democracy”, it is driven by the fact that people are given back their basic rights of trading, private property, and entrepreneurship – the right revoked 60 years ago. Although we don’t have a way back machine to test the result if otherwise, I suspect that with more democracy PLUS the opening up and reform policy, China can be much stronger than today.

  6. Adam

    I still remember my middle school Politics textbook compared the economy growth of China against India. These 2 nations have comparability because their scratch lines are similar. Figures showed that China is on the upper hand, and the textbook used this as a proof for superiority of socialism over capitalism. I don’t know if today’s textbook still has this paragraph.

    I’ve never visited India. I don’t want to make a rash conclusion that “China is better than India” simply based on that textbook, or some posts written by travellers back from India. But if it’s like a racing competition for these 2 nations, I would still like to bet $10 on China.

    Some more random throughts derived from this post:

    1. We learned in the school that there were 4 Great Ancient Civilizations: ancient Egypt, ancient Babylon, ancient India, & ancient China. I wonder if this is a theory which is worldwide accepted, or just another popular one within China. Could anybody clarify this for me?

    2. It seems that going through the long human history, there is always a powerful nation, during one period, taking the dominant position over the others. Today, US is the big brother. Tracing back into history, we have Britain, Spain, Holand, Mongolia, China, Rome, Turkey, Arab… (Sorry, if I missed some one you think I should have mentioned). But till now, NONE of them could regain their glory after they had lost it. In future, can anyone of them make the history to rejuvenate? So far, I think China seems to have a good chance to become this record breaker. Welcome objectors.

  7. Soon

    What is the point of having democracy when the Caste system still rule supreme? Where acute poverty and wealth disparity is polar apart?

    China and Indian started modern nationhood about the same time in 1945 & 1949. No one dispute the merit of democracy, but the timing was not right for China and should I said India as well. Had China been in a deomcracy, China will still be struggling economically and social security will be in dire strait, the country will be in chaos. Once China has enjoyed prosperity, people will yearn for democracy. I think China has started some grass root democracy in small villages which is a good step.

    Had Indian, being as diverse as China in terms of its ethnic population ruled by strong centralised conscientious government since 1945. Indian would have now become the super power of Asia probably far surpassing Japan.

    Jianshuo was right to say that there was this perception of Chinese sacrificing individual right and freedom for growth and security. Whereas Indian value democracy more than development. Factionism and regional politics has hampered growth and development in India not to mention nationalism. Till not long ago, foreign companies couldn’t even own a soft drink factory in India.

    Now who is being bigot here? The one who called other bigots out of its own inferior complex or one who post the question to promote intellectual exchange?

  8. Tony

    i went to india 9 years ago, to bombay and delhi, india is dirty, stinky, and very poor. divide of the filthy rich and super poor are very evident everywhere

    but i still liked the country a lot. indian girls are very pretty

  9. Aneet

    Looks like no-one’s been, apart from nine years ago, Wangjiangshuo has no idea what hes talking about and the main purpose of the article is to wind up Chinese superiority over it’s neighbor. And Indian hotels are some of the most expensive in the world as it happens. Singh may be offensive, but Indians are free, and they laugh at the Chinese for having no vote, no rights. See you down the Chor Bazarr restaurant near Hongqiao if you really want to get into India training.

  10. wonton

    Reality stinks, so does Bombay, literary.

    Was there, cornered by two airport employees in the airport toilet, forced to pay “tip” of US$5. The most expensive pee in my life.

    Do care if i never go there again.

    Interesting how shamelessly Bollywood rips off plots from successful movies and calls it their own simply by placing a few dance numbers with repetitious moves. I am sure Mr Singh and Aneet will also be proud of their tradition of wife burning and other blah blahs…

    China may not be perfect, but at least we are moving towards the right direction. We have our space program, just like India, but thank god we don’t have movies like Slumdog Millionaire celebrating our disgrace.

  11. Blowjob

    Quote: “Thank god we don’t have movies like Slumdog Millionaire celebrating our disgrace”. It won eight Oscars, dumbass. Something a Chinese film hasn’t even come close to emulating. And it wasn’t a Bollywood production. It was filmed by Danny Boyle.

    Quote: “Cornered by two airport employees in the airport toilet, forced to pay “tip” of US$5″. We see. So you get accosted in mens public toilets by other men and then pay money to them do you? One wonders what “service” they were providing…(snigger)

    Clearly no-one here really knows India. Guess its up to Wang to tell us about it when he goes.

  12. wonton

    @Blowjob: Nobody said it was a Bollywood production.

    I am fine, with regards to my experience, give all the silly comments you want.

    Won’t change the reality of India one bit.

  13. Jian Shuo Wang

    Hi guys, please show your respect when discuss about a topic. I have to say the flaming thread I saw in this topic is very rare in 7 years of blogging. Yes. There are personally attack from time to time, but I myself was surprised to see how few it happens in a comment system with no registration, and pure annonymous way. Thanks for keeping the comment section of this blog so unique in the last few years, and please, express what you think without attacking others.

  14. wonton

    Heh heh…

    I am quite ok with Blowjob calling me a dumbass. Words don’t hurt me. But I enjoy his silly reaction.

    JS, your comments about the government of China and India are pretty accurate.

    Anyways, do enjoy your trip to Bombay. Hope you get to stay at the Taj Mahal Hotel. There are some nice things in India, but there are too many other things that makes you ask if it will ever get better for the people.

  15. Shah

    India is free. Chinese are slaves to their government. The Taj is USD750 a night and I don’t think that Wang with his little blog can afford that.

  16. sudhir

    i really had lost my blogger-self years ago. But couldnt stop myself here .

    2 points about myself : I am Indian born with a broad perspective of life . I am living in Shanghai for past almost 9 years out of 29 that i have lived in total. So i was here just after my education and ever since working here.

    1 point about WJS: I am really hurt when someone here specially Indian said bad words about him , although i dont know him personally he has always been my guide in China and in life thru his blog. To know him more i think one should see some of his really heart full articles in this blog.

    Now coming to point of India vs China , I think we mortals{non- politically active/involved chinese and indians} should now understand that politics is just a way for industrialists and bankers to control markets and no matter democracy or communism a common man is always played by politicians for big business people.

    China after reforms has made a good balance by making few people very rich and billions of very poor , well a little less hungry . India after reforms has done similer thing but a lot still has to be done , which im sure would be done also .and i dont see any harm in this as in life 100% fairness and equality is a myth.

    Actually what we miss here is that correct story is not India vs China its infact India and China ,,, we share our weakness and strengths and sometimes complement each other by being strong in where the other needs support . Now governments have recognised this already and soon people and media on both sides will also need to understand , we cant throw bricks at each other as we both stay in glass houses, We need get together and help each other to get our people {business people can read people word as ‘market’}out of poverty so that we can enjoy its benifits together rather than again being made economic slaves of west like our forefathers made mistake about.

    Few points which help me make my opinion

    China and India are religiously / culturally /borderly linked

    China and India together make a lot of people {read market}

    China and India if shun trade in USD and make a asian currency together with saarc countries it could be as big as euro

    China and India are biggest consumer for energy if combined they represent a great bargaining power in energy prices , but if they start to outbid each other its good news for energy sellers.

    China is ageing fast with great economy India has great potential young jobseekers to fill in gaps

    China has certain infrastructre development experience which is usefull for India , otherwise India need buy this experience from overpriced western sources

    Chinese entertainment industry can learn a lot from bollywood industry by working together

    Chinese financial market and banking can learn a lot from Indian side by working together

    Indian infrastructre investment is safest bet for chinese extra foreign reserves now. India too can put good use to chinese money and both can gain from it.

    Chinese health care and education needs Indian specialisation.

    Indians are thinkers and planners while chinese are very good in executions of plans and delivery of results.

    Above all pl dont forget its the western businesses and media who wants these to countries to compete and not co-operate so that they can have 2 slaves and not one large competetor

  17. Jian Shuo Wang

    One thing I want to clarify for the third time is, I am NOT the person to think China is superior over India, or even worse, to think the political system in China is the root cause. Read the blog article again or the comments, or other articles I wrote recently if you didn’t get it.

    @wudhir, welcome to join the discussion. I am actually very happy to have someone from India to join.

    I actually have little idea about what India is. That is the reason I said on this blog that I want to visit India one day. To discuss about a country without actually set foot there sounds ridiculous.

    I have many India friends, whom I treasure a lot. India is very like China – the huge population makes the two countries too big elephants (in the story of Blind men and the Elephants).

    I am happy that more people joined the discussion to share their view of these two big elephants.

  18. Jitesh Tripadi

    I am from Mumbai and I hope “Singh” is a non-Indian foreigner trying to be sarcastic. If not all Chinese can be confident that India is never going to develop as long as we have egotistical morons like him in our midst. Just to show one example of how stupid we can be: many Indians, even some of the 500 million of us who are starving, were proud that we had the richest man in the world at one time. We are really happy at the success of one of us: “I may be as poor as shit but at least I can boast about his 1 billion dollar home.” All I say to my fellow countrymen is to please stop talking and start working to stay ahead of at least African nations!

  19. Deb

    I am a mom. I have two children a boy and a girl both around 30 years of age planing on going to India for 3 weeks in Dec this year. I am concerned. What I know about India worries me. My daughter has been sick quite a bit this year, and I do not want either of them to getting ill.

    Any input, respective input please.

  20. Randeep

    It’s a beggarland. I was there for 4 years. The kids never stop bugging you.

    Their “god” really isn’t any deity, its money. The amount of greed is unbelievable. Do look around more if you shop, a lot things are overpriced. I once haggled a deal that was slashed down to 30% of its original price which makes me realise how ridiculous the original price was. I wouldn’t say that there aren’t any honest or good people there, just that there is an extremely high percentage of people trying to swindle you than most places around the world that I’ve been. People asking for tips here and there. Maybe its not their fault that they are so poor, but keep this in mind when you’re planning on visiting. Locals take dumps along the railway tracks, quite a distinct sight really (as are the cows wandering around in some towns)

    Most towns are very dusty especially the big cities.

    Food is decent though, if there is a good thing about it it’s the variety. Telecoms are well developed with a great disparity showing in the other sectors. Places like the taj mahal and agra fort are nice to look from afar, its the journey there that sucks.

    Deb: Drink only bottled water. Food is generally not a problem. Tourists/foreigners are usually left alone by thugs/robbers (but not by beggars though, and NEVER give them any money they’ll just call more of their erm… colleagues and follow you around because they know you’re one of those that do give stuff out). Hygiene is generally poor, just try to ignore it (there’s really not much you can do about it).

    p.s just a personal pet peeve. what india has is an illusion of democracy, manmohan was put in his seat by the rich and powerful as most nations are. china’s military might swallows india whole. this is fact

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