I am Dreaming about Visiting India
By Jian Shuo Wang on 2009-09-01 21:45 · FriendsJust had nice dinner of my Indian friend Pranay and Jiby. We spent two days together, when they visited us in our office.
Over dinner, we talked about a lot of politics, and shared about the change in China and India. It is interesting to see how the current Chinese system of a powerful central government can do whatever they want to do, and sacrificing individual rights for growth, and in India to sacrifice development for democracy. I do not agree on the general perception in India that China grows just because of one strong power. Will talk about it later.
At last, I suggested them to use Metro Line #1 to transit to Metro Line #2 at People’s Square and then transit to Maglev train to the Pudong Airport tomorrow morning. It is obvious that the Maglev part is a good suggestion, but transiting at People’s Square may not be as impressive for my India friends, who are used to the train station at Mumbai!
I am also impressed by the high house price (both rent and purchase) in Mumbai. I started to worry about my travel expense there.
22 Comments
I do not think Jian Shuo is either pompous or bigoted. Actually, he is quite right. Democracy does not exist (read Noam Chomsky: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041029.htm) nor does it work: look at the state of the economy !
Keep in mind China's population: bring in Unions (way to powerful in democracies), freedom for each and all (a guy was recently arrested for the 11th time for drinking and driving: he finally killed someone and is now joing to jail) etc. and you will have one big, massive mess.
The strength eventhough not perfect, is one powerful, central government. That's what China has and watch out for the next 10 years: China will be in command.
India's economy, it is at 6.1% right now growth and without the nonsense of a 4trillion yuan injection, which is the only reason China isn't showing 3%. Plus your stock market is 90% government owned SOEs and your enterprenouers can't get bank loans. Your the ones whose economy is in the shits.
"China Rules" yeah, right. Ha ha ha. You can't even accept your own people if they're the wrong color: http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens/
Come to India. See how people can live free.
Hitler was elected by a democratic system...
Look at how the US bring the "great democracy" in foreign countries.
Look at what they have done and who they backed in South America a few decades ago.
China never "visited" neighbours and tried to change a country's regime.
Give China time and you will see. I just wish you had less anger and more openess, less cheap shots and more of a diplomatic keyboard.
China's growth was not driven by "non-democracy", it is driven by the fact that people are given back their basic rights of trading, private property, and entrepreneurship - the right revoked 60 years ago. Although we don't have a way back machine to test the result if otherwise, I suspect that with more democracy PLUS the opening up and reform policy, China can be much stronger than today.
I've never visited India. I don't want to make a rash conclusion that "China is better than India" simply based on that textbook, or some posts written by travellers back from India. But if it's like a racing competition for these 2 nations, I would still like to bet $10 on China.
Some more random throughts derived from this post:
1. We learned in the school that there were 4 Great Ancient Civilizations: ancient Egypt, ancient Babylon, ancient India, & ancient China. I wonder if this is a theory which is worldwide accepted, or just another popular one within China. Could anybody clarify this for me?
2. It seems that going through the long human history, there is always a powerful nation, during one period, taking the dominant position over the others. Today, US is the big brother. Tracing back into history, we have Britain, Spain, Holand, Mongolia, China, Rome, Turkey, Arab... (Sorry, if I missed some one you think I should have mentioned). But till now, NONE of them could regain their glory after they had lost it. In future, can anyone of them make the history to rejuvenate? So far, I think China seems to have a good chance to become this record breaker. Welcome objectors.
China and Indian started modern nationhood about the same time in 1945 & 1949. No one dispute the merit of democracy, but the timing was not right for China and should I said India as well. Had China been in a deomcracy, China will still be struggling economically and social security will be in dire strait, the country will be in chaos. Once China has enjoyed prosperity, people will yearn for democracy. I think China has started some grass root democracy in small villages which is a good step.
Had Indian, being as diverse as China in terms of its ethnic population ruled by strong centralised conscientious government since 1945. Indian would have now become the super power of Asia probably far surpassing Japan.
Jianshuo was right to say that there was this perception of Chinese sacrificing individual right and freedom for growth and security. Whereas Indian value democracy more than development. Factionism and regional politics has hampered growth and development in India not to mention nationalism. Till not long ago, foreign companies couldn't even own a soft drink factory in India.
Now who is being bigot here? The one who called other bigots out of its own inferior complex or one who post the question to promote intellectual exchange?
but i still liked the country a lot. indian girls are very pretty
Was there, cornered by two airport employees in the airport toilet, forced to pay "tip" of US$5. The most expensive pee in my life.
Do care if i never go there again.
Interesting how shamelessly Bollywood rips off plots from successful movies and calls it their own simply by placing a few dance numbers with repetitious moves. I am sure Mr Singh and Aneet will also be proud of their tradition of wife burning and other blah blahs...
China may not be perfect, but at least we are moving towards the right direction. We have our space program, just like India, but thank god we don't have movies like Slumdog Millionaire celebrating our disgrace.
Quote: "Cornered by two airport employees in the airport toilet, forced to pay "tip" of US$5". We see. So you get accosted in mens public toilets by other men and then pay money to them do you? One wonders what "service" they were providing...(snigger)
Clearly no-one here really knows India. Guess its up to Wang to tell us about it when he goes.
I am fine, with regards to my experience, give all the silly comments you want.
Won't change the reality of India one bit.
I am quite ok with Blowjob calling me a dumbass. Words don't hurt me. But I enjoy his silly reaction.
JS, your comments about the government of China and India are pretty accurate.
Anyways, do enjoy your trip to Bombay. Hope you get to stay at the Taj Mahal Hotel. There are some nice things in India, but there are too many other things that makes you ask if it will ever get better for the people.
2 points about myself : I am Indian born with a broad perspective of life . I am living in Shanghai for past almost 9 years out of 29 that i have lived in total. So i was here just after my education and ever since working here.
1 point about WJS: I am really hurt when someone here specially Indian said bad words about him , although i dont know him personally he has always been my guide in China and in life thru his blog. To know him more i think one should see some of his really heart full articles in this blog.
Now coming to point of India vs China , I think we mortals{non- politically active/involved chinese and indians} should now understand that politics is just a way for industrialists and bankers to control markets and no matter democracy or communism a common man is always played by politicians for big business people.
China after reforms has made a good balance by making few people very rich and billions of very poor , well a little less hungry . India after reforms has done similer thing but a lot still has to be done , which im sure would be done also .and i dont see any harm in this as in life 100% fairness and equality is a myth.
Actually what we miss here is that correct story is not India vs China its infact India and China ,,, we share our weakness and strengths and sometimes complement each other by being strong in where the other needs support . Now governments have recognised this already and soon people and media on both sides will also need to understand , we cant throw bricks at each other as we both stay in glass houses, We need get together and help each other to get our people {business people can read people word as 'market'}out of poverty so that we can enjoy its benifits together rather than again being made economic slaves of west like our forefathers made mistake about.
Few points which help me make my opinion
China and India are religiously / culturally /borderly linked
China and India together make a lot of people {read market}
China and India if shun trade in USD and make a asian currency together with saarc countries it could be as big as euro
China and India are biggest consumer for energy if combined they represent a great bargaining power in energy prices , but if they start to outbid each other its good news for energy sellers.
China is ageing fast with great economy India has great potential young jobseekers to fill in gaps
China has certain infrastructre development experience which is usefull for India , otherwise India need buy this experience from overpriced western sources
Chinese entertainment industry can learn a lot from bollywood industry by working together
Chinese financial market and banking can learn a lot from Indian side by working together
Indian infrastructre investment is safest bet for chinese extra foreign reserves now. India too can put good use to chinese money and both can gain from it.
Chinese health care and education needs Indian specialisation.
Indians are thinkers and planners while chinese are very good in executions of plans and delivery of results.
Above all pl dont forget its the western businesses and media who wants these to countries to compete and not co-operate so that they can have 2 slaves and not one large competetor
@wudhir, welcome to join the discussion. I am actually very happy to have someone from India to join.
I actually have little idea about what India is. That is the reason I said on this blog that I want to visit India one day. To discuss about a country without actually set foot there sounds ridiculous.
I have many India friends, whom I treasure a lot. India is very like China - the huge population makes the two countries too big elephants (in the story of Blind men and the Elephants).
I am happy that more people joined the discussion to share their view of these two big elephants.
Any input, respective input please.
Their "god" really isn't any deity, its money. The amount of greed is unbelievable. Do look around more if you shop, a lot things are overpriced. I once haggled a deal that was slashed down to 30% of its original price which makes me realise how ridiculous the original price was. I wouldn't say that there aren't any honest or good people there, just that there is an extremely high percentage of people trying to swindle you than most places around the world that I've been. People asking for tips here and there. Maybe its not their fault that they are so poor, but keep this in mind when you're planning on visiting. Locals take dumps along the railway tracks, quite a distinct sight really (as are the cows wandering around in some towns)
Most towns are very dusty especially the big cities.
Food is decent though, if there is a good thing about it it's the variety. Telecoms are well developed with a great disparity showing in the other sectors. Places like the taj mahal and agra fort are nice to look from afar, its the journey there that sucks.
Deb: Drink only bottled water. Food is generally not a problem. Tourists/foreigners are usually left alone by thugs/robbers (but not by beggars though, and NEVER give them any money they'll just call more of their erm... colleagues and follow you around because they know you're one of those that do give stuff out). Hygiene is generally poor, just try to ignore it (there's really not much you can do about it).
p.s just a personal pet peeve. what india has is an illusion of democracy, manmohan was put in his seat by the rich and powerful as most nations are. china's military might swallows india whole. this is fact