Friends Started to Boycott French Products

After what happened to the Olympic Torch in Paris on April 7, 2008, the movement to boycott French products started to spread across China like wild fire on grassland.

Conversation with Wendy

Last morning, when Wendy and I were waiting in the long line at the SinoPec gas station to fill gas to our cars, Wendy said people in her company already started boycotting French products after what happened in Paris. She added: “I will not go to Carrefour any more, and I won’t consider French cars in the future.”

Besides Wendy, when I talked with my other friends, most of them (well, to be honest, 3 out of 3 persons) said they are going to boycott French goods.

No to mention tremendous posts in the BBS space to boycott French product. This is after the 10-20 year boycotting of Japanese goods in China. It seems to me (please note: only me) that everyone is urging boycott of French Products these days.

I don’t want to talk about others. Just share what is the Paris reaction impact on me.

Impact on Me

Thanks to this blog, which is a good source for me to understand the world better. There are point-of-views from every country, and many of them are conflicting dramatically. Guided with my approach to the world: “Seek first to understand, then to understood”, I really learned a lot. For many times, comments that does not make any sense to me turned out to make some sense after I read similar comments or read it after some time. I tried very hard to understand what is going on in Tibet, how Tibet people think, and why the Pro-Tibet people think it is reasonable for Tibet to go independent. I tried to understand first, or to listen first. Unfortunately, I was quite shock when I saw what happened in Paris.

I may rate myself as a Pro-French person before April 7. There are “France Year” in China and I participated in some program, and there is a following “China Year” in French. I have good friend Clarie in French, and I have workmate in France. The country has a very good imagine for me.

All of a sudden, Paris showed strong Anti-China tendency, and I saw it on YouTube, and on BBC, and CNN. I don’t know what others think but what Paris Mayor said and the newspaper headline in the following day seem outrageous for me. If you need an example, I am the person in China who were turned from Pro-France to Anti-France within few days. Well. I may not consider myself as ANTI-France, but at least, I don’t think France is a friendly country at all.

P.S. There is something very interesting about the different news I got. The anger in me was not triggered by what I saw in media in China, on the contrary, it is from western media. On CCTV, and local news papers, the theme was still “Relay in Paris went on smoothly. Although there are extremely small group Pro-Tibet guys trying to disturb the relay, the Paris policemen did wonderful job to make the relay a great success”. Or “The torch was never FORCED to be extinguished. It was just according to the plan…”. It is obvious that the government want to either save some “face”, or avoid trigger big reaction (like boycott) to the event. Although people may argue whether the government (or the Party) has the right to cover the truth (not just “extremely small group of people”, CNN told me that it is a very big portion of the people), they don’t want any instable factor inside the country. Is it the right thing to do for the China government is to soften the conflict? Personally, I think it is the right direction (although I agree covering and tweak the truth is the wrong method).

Boycotting?

I believe boycotting is an immature way to handle problems. It works only when you want to create more problems. Things will look like this:

  • French boycott Beijing Olympics in Paris, which leads to

  • Chinese boycotting French goods, which lead to
  • French or European country boycotting Chinese goods, which leads to
  • Even bigger boycotting in China….

The circle goes on and each round get bigger. If that happens, people in France and China are joining hands again. This time, they are working together to create a worst future for human being, or used their joined effort to break peace :-) So as always, I am a big believer of communication, or a “bridge”, instead of boycotting.

Although I don’t want to be to quick to judge whether it is right or wrong in this complicated world, I firmly believe, this time, that people in Paris did something wrong. Taking me as an example, they successfully turned a friend into an enemy (well, again, I am not an enemy yet. Just I feel we are not friend any longer). If this is what they want, good. Well done. I suspect I am not the single Chinese who feel this way.

Government or People?

In international affairs, it is really hard to distinguish government of a country or people of a country. Many protests are against what the Chinese government is doing. For many things, if I am allowed, I will join the protest also, for example, to remove the Great Firewall, or to fight against abuse of tax payer’s money… In many events, I can tell the protest is for the government, which I have no problem at all. “Count me too!” I would even say so for some particular protest.

This time, they really made a mistake. Although I understand some of them are still protest again government, but it is well received as a protest for the whole China, as a country, as its people… Olympic is very special to people in China, and choosing the wrong target caused big reaction.

The other day, when the US Congress US-China Relationship Working Group Delegation visited Shanghai, my friends in the team asked my opinion about whether it is right to boycotting Beijing Olympic. (Don’t be surprised that I am willing to be involved in this kind of discussion. Since I am trying to understand what’s in American’s minds, and what’s for the best interest of the peace between the two countries, both of us, me and my friends, are very open to communicate about sensitive issues concerning US China relationship), I said “No. Please don’t do it and it is very dangerous. Olympics is like the Wedding Ceremony of PEOPLE in China, not the government. Imagine your reaction if someone try to ruin YOUR wedding, instead of your governor’s wedding?”

Now the wedding of 13 billion people started to be ruined. Its not the government official who are not happy, it is everyone in the country who feel being hurt. Please understand the difference, and think about what is going to happen.

Again, Educate me and Others about What you Think

As always, I don’t want to pretend that I am always right. By sharing exactly how I feel in this event as a normal people in China, I can provide more valuable information than news report. This is just my perspective (everyone has an angle, right?)

If you think people in Paris are doing something right, tell me and my other readers why (I am curious, and I don’t have an answer). If there is someone who are French, and even participated in the relay, share what you think? No offense at all by this post, I just want to understand what do you think? Why it happened?

148 thoughts on “Friends Started to Boycott French Products

  1. Two points:

    1) I think France is always the maverick in the west. Remember France is one of the first countries which established diplomatic relation with P.R.China, their president was Charles_de_Gaulle at the time.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle#Recognition_of_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China

    In recent years France (along with Germany) is very outspoken against the Iraq war. So I would think it’s just their (some what naive) indepedent spirits got them into the Paris torch relay mess. Unfortunately they are not the wrong side of the matter this time.

    2) Trade and Boycott. I also thought about the boycott immediately after reading the Paris torch incident news. But after more careful consideration, I think boycott is mostly a symbolic gesture, not a viable solution. Chinese have said boycotting Japanese products for 10-20 years, but I saw the Japanese cars (Toyota, Honda) are ever more popular in China. This is because most consumers and business are very rational in terms of “get the most bang from the buck”, or “get their money worth” when they buy stuff.

    That being said, I think western political leaders and foreign consumer brands should walk a very fine line here: they really should not piss off the Chinese people and consumers. The market is too important to ignore.

  2. I think that there has to be a distinction between the people and the government of a country. I don’t think those French, British, and American protesters especially hate Chinese people or China, they just don’t like its government and its policies. However, since China is very much a part of the “face culture”, anything against China is taken very personally. As you said, the Olympic Games are like China’s “wedding”. In the West, we usually don’t taken attacks on our country so personally. In fact, I don’t think we really care a whole lot about the Olympics either. I really, really worry that these boycotts will continue and things will spiral out of control. Extreme nationalism is not good for anyone.

  3. As you just mentioned in your post, it’s impossible to generalize and say that French are bad and that you should boycott their products!

    And of course, what will happen when you have bigger boycotts not only in France but in the European Union, I think that is a totally immature way to react.

    I think some people who are protibet could be violent because they are desperate imagine all what they have lost, families who are apart, people whose religion is attacked and diminished their traditions and languages are only ok to express in some places where chinese govt agrees and of course the big problem of being educated in a different way and lost ancient traditions trasmitted by education in the tibetan system.

    People dont choose what their govt do neither the hsitory of their ancestors, because many of the people who are tibetans now, they dont even think its a problem to speak mandarin, because they have always being like that, since they were born some few years ago.

    Try to think what would you feel if japanese, korean, american or even latinamericans came to your country and changed your old ways taught you anothr language, expressed against your beliefs, even letting you do your stuff but only sometimes in some areas or moments….

    when they could think its even ok to be proud of having that culture, but only a little, not as a bigger thing that han culture.

    I dont agree with violence, but i know also that chinese could be very violent as it has been before in tian’anmen and other big problems and protests, even when the world knows little about them. People in Xinjiang and people in Yunnan and Guangzhou are against some of the control of PRC and they have even went to jail because of expressing their oposition… How can Chinese now complain about other countries being violent? If Chinese are violent against themselves?

    Its difficult to take parts… But definitively its not ok to do whatever is apart from debating talking and promoting peace and reasonable agreements first…

    Lets see what happens with the olympics and pls think twice about starting childish measures like boycott or things like that… You think you are being a nationalist, but you can collapse your economy if many big importers of yours become against china now…

    And i think you can lose more face in this process because you are in the media eye and whatever reaction will be taken out of context and could be very bad… Its your oportunity to show you can lead the world in a better way than US. Hope you can do it because we (the world) need that change, but its important to be responsible about your reactions in order to achieve it… And become a bigger and more respected power in the world.

  4. It’s not just Paris. Yesterday an American college professor sent two links about the history of Tibet and the riots in Tibet to a Chinese student organization. The Students for a Free Tibet were outraged that a professors dared to show the other side, sent outraged emails to the college president and other faculty, while the students from China have been sending emails of support saying that for years they have felt oppressed by the one sided proTibet Independence antiChina stories all over the US. Very few Americans know anything about Tibet and China, only the stories from the Tibetans living in India and Nepal.

    I think the outrage comes from an idealized view of Tibet before 1950, a desire of some people to champion the “poor defenseless innocent pure harmless etc.” victims and feel very good about themselves as a result. So when it turns out that some of those “victims” are murderers and the past is not so idealized, the supporters feel threatened, as if their own morality was being questioned. At least that’s what’s happening in some colleges in the US.

    The good part is that the student from China are beginning to see that not everyone in the US thinks China is evil toward Tibet, and that they can speak out. So perhaps the videos and reports of the riots will have a good result, although at a terrible cost.

  5. And P.S. don’t hate the French, but know that most of them are misinformed about China and Tibet just as Americans are. As for boycotting, that could be a very interesting development. That’s aimed at the French government, not the French people, I think.

  6. Let me see:

    1 Our government has the right to cover the truth. But you can argue, go on. But be stable.

    2 I feel no superiority over the majority who don’t have Youtube, CNN, or BBC access. They are holding a wedding on 2008.08.08, on a reasonable basis.

    3 I’m willing to join a protest to break GFW, but as long as they leave my business alone, i won’t bother to be more “active”. Trust me, China is improving already. They WILL know more, and they SHOULD still love their country.

    Is that what you are trying to convey, Mr. Wang? Thanks.

    p.s. There are 1.3 billion of us, not 13 billion. And to tell you the truth, despite all the media heat, i still prefer to watch a pirated US film during that contesting month, say, Cloverfield, which sucks.

  7. Don’t forget France deployed over 3000 police to protect the torch relay in Paris, without the police present, the torch already ended up at the bottom of the river Seine.

  8. Hello JS,

    Childish as it may be, it’s still the most efficient way to show your disapproval. I am nothing but a speck in the eyes of the French so my boycott of their goods is about the smallest way for me to show my displeasure. It’s definately much more civilised than screaming an rioting on the streets. And I don’t intend to throw paint at their embassy. It’s all rather simple really, If they want to do business with me, the least I expect is that they show some respect and civility.

  9. OH i forgot you mentioned “French Products Boycott” here, well , i don’t use any French products in my memory. Does going to the 家乐福 supermarket counts? Then it’s out of the question, i guess.

    And do you want to know my opinion on “Boycott”? One of my friends usually speaks loud of that, and the funny thing is that he has a Walkman, which is later replaced by a Panasonic CD Player, and he can’t miss one episode of his favorite manga shows.

    So, tell me, how am i going to trust him?

  10. Interesting…I wonder if you are being c*nsored a little bit today, Jian Shuo. I can only see a portion of this post (it stops in the middle of a sentence) and although I can tell that you have had some previous comments, I cannot see any of them.

    Anyway, what I was going to say is that it makes me very sad to think that the Olympic games are being so tarnished by political upheaval. To me it seems as though this wonderful world-warming event should be all about (and *only* about) the athletes, regardless of in what country it is being held, and what other countries may think of that country’s political policies/problems. I know that there have been problems of one sort or another like this for many years now. but I keep hoping that the harmonious thinkers of the world will eventually win out over the antagonists.

    Very too bad for all concerned :-(

    I’m sorry if this comment does not fit with the rest of your post or has already been expressed by other commenters.

  11. As a Chinese who studied in the UK in 2002 and is working in the US now, and have been reading much more western media than Chinese ones. I think I will be less emotional than average Chinese to say boycott to something foreign. I ever travelled Paris before and loved the city as well. But the love has gone already, and I have admitted the firm decision is made already in my mind. For the rest of my life I will not touch anything about France which is no longer friendly to me. The French was just not willing to protect a week disabled lady who was so determined to protect the torch. You see? I meant the power of the rich city and the disabled. The rich is so weak compared with our disabled lady of so powerful strength! You can imagine how an average Chinese will react, especially after the Argentina torch relay was run so smoothly. It is not that the protesters in Paris were too strong, it is the incompetence of Paris in terms of thinking naturally.

    P.S. Someone will say there had been little impact on Japanese goods sale in China even when the Chinese launched a big boycott to Japan in 2005. But it is irrelevant to Paris chaos. We have been boycotting Japanese goods for the history they’d done for Chinese people. Many young people boycott without full knowledge of the history so many of them don’t engage in the boycott too much. But this time, we witness the history which pass us a so direct and strong feeling lasting through our lifetime. That’s the difference.

  12. I am staying in Singapore but have been closing observing the series of incidents for past months.

    Of course, China does have their poor records of Human rights . Being a gaint country with growing power, everyone hopes .My opinion is that the words” Human Rights” is a universal , widely spanned quote where it can be the most inconvenient way to “punish” or “deter” any countries, progresses and cooperation. I hate to say but double standard always applied when we talk about ” Human Rights” as observed ….

    I am concerned that the implications of all these “pure profit driven” media news and mass protests against China will nove beyond the Beijing Olympic Game. The future of China and other countries will fall into the current x and y generations; and with the recent incident, the x and y generations in China may instill the ideas that most western countries are against the Chinese in progressing. I can sense these sentiment whenever I visit China or talk to any chinese friends. Some given claimed that it is a wakeup for all Chinese to get united…..I hope this perception will not last and will erase cos I believe that the majority pf the people in the world will hope to see peaceful and engaging relationship in moving forward. By engaging this Giant with 1.4 billion population with more approriate way,it will be beneficial to the World.

    PS: Boycotting is a foolish way as China is a major exporting country and it serve no beneficial propose to the World when the “musical chair” starts.

  13. Reposting -I am staying in Singapore but have been closing observing the series of incidents for past months.

    Of course, China does have their poor records of Human rights . Being a gaint country with growing power, it is getting more “zealous” ………attention and .My opinion is that the words” Human Rights” is a universal , widely spanned quote where it can be the most CONVENIENT way to “punish” or “deter” any countries, progresses and cooperation. I hate to say but double standard always applied when we talk about ” Human Rights” as observed ….

    I am concerned that the implications of all these “pure profit driven” media news and mass protests against China will have beyond the Beijing Olympic Game. The future of China and other countries will fall into the current x and y generations; and with the recent incident, the x and y generations in China may instill the ideas that most western countries are against the Chinese in progressing. I can sense these sentiment whenever I visit China or talk to any chinese friends. Some given claimed that it is a wakeup for all Chinese to get united…..I hope this perception will not last and will erase cos I believe that the majority pf the people in the world will hope to see peaceful and engaging relationship in moving forward. By engaging this Giant with 1.4 billion population with more approriate way,it will be beneficial to the World.

    PS: Boycotting is a foolish way as China is a major exporting country and it serve no beneficial propose to the World when the “musical chair” starts.

  14. Ha.

    If your boycott of French products is as effective as your boycott of Japanese products, I’d say the French have nothing to worry about.

    Again – your government WANTED the world spotlight and then discovered to their dismay that they can’t control it. The world isn’t anti-China. Every country and every government in the world is criticized for something. Get over it.

    A small group of people disturb your precious torch run and you automatically blame the whole country for it?

    If you really want to express your outrage to someone who has REALLY hurt the Chinese people, pull out some of your currency and look at the Great Leader. Last I checked, the French hadn’t killed 50 million Chinese. Learn your own history…..

  15. 你好 Jianshuowang,

    I’d heard about this too. I’d just like to say– the vast majority of French people I know admire China and are appalled at what a small, vocal minority of foolish French protesters did when they attacked that brave Chinese torchbearer in the wheelchair. The same with Germany– despite the foolishness and incompetence of their Prime Minister Angela Merkel, most Germans are more favorable to China and like the Chinese people. The same with British who are disgusted with the attacks on the torch ceremony in London. The same with us Americans, who don’t agree with the protesters in San Francisco and support you.

    I can understand why many Chinese are feeling resentment right now, you have every right to, considering the misbehavior and arrogance of so many protesters in the USA and Europe.

    But most of us in these countries who have jobs, families, who work for a living, have a more respectful view of China, and we don’t agree with the protesters.

    In other words– please don’t look at the violent protesters in France, the USA, Germany and elsewhere, and consider them representative of our views as a whole. They don’t represent us and we don’t agree with them.

    All I’m hoping for, is that we all calm down a little bit, since these product boycotts just wind up hurting everybody, needlessly. Most Chinese and Westerners get along. Most Americans and Europeans have a more positive attitude toward China. Let’s just cool down and step back from the antagonism.

    Most of these protesters are the types of people who protest everything, all the time. They can’t even locate Tibet on a map. We dislike them almost as much as you do. When next week arrives, they’ll be protesting something else. Then we should all move toward more trade, interaction and respect. A cool-down period would be great for everyone.

  16. And Brian, you should take your own advice and learn some history yourself. The French in fact, did kill a large number of Chinese when the French participated in the Opium Wars and other anti-Chinese imperialism in the 19th century. The French weren’t quite as bad as the British, but they both collaborated in burning down many ancient Chinese cultural landmarks in the mid-1800s.

    If we’re going to avoid a needless conflict here that would be damaging to the entire world, we need to step back from the brink And we need far fewer people spouting off stupidity like yourself, Brian. This is not a black-and-white issue with good guys and bad guys, it’s a complicated one with many facets. Just chill out a bit, okay? Let’s keep cool and work together.

  17. And on the other side, to wonton and Kevin here– again, I sympathize with your feelings here (I have another, longer post on general public relations issues for China that is in the moderation cue for the previous Tibet thread). I’m just saying that these boycotts and trade wars, hostilities in general, are mutually damaging to all sides.

    Again, most French respect you and don’t agree with the wheelchair attackers– and in fact, French police stopped those attackers.

    Likewise, even most Japanese I know have a lot of respect for the Chinese.

    The Japanese invasion in the 1930′s against China was horrible, but China and Japan have a much longer history that goes on for many centuries before that.

    And throughout most of that history, China and Japan have had a relationship of mutual respect. Japan’s very writing system and language bear China’s impact in every corner, and most Japanese I know consider China to be a fellow brother-in-arms, an advanced Asian nation that can cut through all the old stereotypes and demonstrate that the potential for East Asians as world leaders in science, technology, business, culture and even human rights, as China continues to improve.

    Let’s all cool down a little and recognize that.

    Most individual Chinese, Japanese, French, Americans, British, Germans and Italians, we get along fine with each other and have good relations.

    We have a lot more to gain by working with each other and pushing each other’s hot buttons. The last thing the world needs, these days, is still more needless, stupid, unnecessary conflict. Don’t let those idiot protesters in Paris, London and San Francisco make you think this is Western opinion. It isn’t. Most of us just want to be your good neighbors and partners!

  18. BTW, I think Jianshuowang says it best here– boycotts just hurt both sides and are an immature, poorly-focused, foolish way to express an opinion.

    Don’t pay attention to a few arrogant protesters who have too much spare time on their hands to protest anything and everything– already, today, the French are busy protesting something else! Look at the vast majority of moderate people.

    BTW, the torch in Buenos Aires, Argentina today had no trouble. Seems that in Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking South America, there’s less of an issue and more courtesy on the streets of the cities to guests. As others have written, China would gain a lot to vary your major trade contacts and also the languages you study in school, not just English. (The USA and Britain, unfortunately, are the home of many of the worst loudmouthed protesters, though not the majority of people.)

    I’ve found this as well– South Americans, Spaniards and Italians are remarkably hospitable people to outsiders. Much like the Chinese, for that matter.

  19. I agree with Wayfarer — imagine if the games were being held in the US this year how many protests there would be around the world. Such demonstrations, however, very rarely represent the feelings of the majority of people in a country toward the everyday people of another country. I happened to travel in France during a time when relations between our two countries, politically, were quite strained. Although apprehensive as to how I might be treated, without exception the French people I met were cordial and helpful, and we both expressed and readily accepted each other’s feelings of embarrassment and distress about how the politicians in our countries were dealing with their differences. I hope that were you to travel in France today, Jian Shuo, you would not be viewed as “representing China”, but would be welcomed as just being yourself. Of course it is different for official delegations, dignitaries, etc., and there are antagonistic and narrow-minded people all over the world as well. But in my experience, the vast majority of people are just, well, *people* — people with families and friends who are trying to do the best they can to raise their children, work hard and have a successful and meaningful life. Except for a very few, no one really *wants* to go to war, or to hate other people for no good reason. Please do not lose your high regard for your fellow citizens of the world because of the actions of a few!

    PS: It is several hours later now, and I can see the whole post and all the comments :-)

  20. @wayfarer : I would like to agree with you that most french of germans do not hold very strong views against China. It would make me very sad if it were true. But the silence of the so called “majority” in allowing their friend to be ridiculed and insulted is really too much. As I had written earlier, the staging of the games is not just for China alone. This country fought hard for the games to entertain our friends. I feel like we are being slapped with a second opium war. God knows we are still recovering from the hurt and humiliation of the last one.

    I know that my boycott probabily won’t make a dent on whatever. I am no even a supporter of the games in China the first place. But it’s just a little thing I feel I must do. For myself and my country. I do appreciate your post, but just know that a great many of us are hurt, and for people like Brian, well done. We all just have to live with the consequences.

    China’s foreign policies has been fairly consistent in that she has never interferred with the internal politics of other countries. Tibet is a problem we must solve ourselves and not through some screaming protest grouppie.

    I agree that no country is perfect, least of all China.

    But not country should be treated with this kind of disrespect. Having less Chanel no. 5 sold in China is the least of our problems.

  21. the boycott of the French products is so stupide! How long will it last before the Chinese will eat French baguette or croissants, buy Vuiton bags and L’Oréal products, etc……?

    In France we have the right to express our opinion and to protest agaisnt the gouvernements’ policies in the streets. This is a RIGHT and NOBODY must limit and forbidd any French in France this right to protest.

    Henri, a Frenchman proud to be French.

    VIVE LA FRANCE !

  22. pffft !!

    The best croissants I’ve tasted (and I’ve stayed in France) are made by non- French. LV bags are overpriced and frankly darn ugly. And the best facial cleansers are by Himalaya Herbals. So there.

  23. 赞成抵制法国产品

    这次巴黎、伦敦的骚扰,表面看是政治抗议,其实深处是西方人的一种混合了对中国的恐惧、种族主义歧视和偏执己见的大杂烩,一种很阴暗的心理。

    西方媒体起了煽动的作用,最恶心的是,这次西方媒体完全脱下了裤子,不惜捏造,而且在明显的事实面前拒绝承认,完全听从自己阴暗心理和情绪的指引,丧失了基本的底线

    抵制是西方人能听懂的国际政治语言,虽然无法改变他们的内在,至少能发出一个明确的信号

    理性抵制法国产品,多向周围的人宣传

  24. i agree to boycott french products

    the so-called “political” protest in paris and london is in fact a sentiment mixed with fear of china, racism and self-absorb

    west media fan up this anti-china sentiment by making lies, they refuse to admit fact that there is no “bloddy crackdown” but only very restrained action to control mobs in lahsa. west media don’t mind lying again and again, because they just want to vent their anti-china sentiment and mislead west people

    boycott french products will not change them but at least let them know chinese are angrey

    VIVE la FROG!

  25. Stephen, you wrote: Don’t forget France deployed over 3000 police to protect the torch relay in Paris, without the police present, the torch already ended up at the bottom of the river Seine.

    Knowing that there will be many pro-tibet protestors and the situation could get worse than London, Paris city hall still hang out a flag saying ‘Paris support human rights all over the world’ on the day of olympic torch day.

    I see this as the Paris goverment encouraging people to protesting Olympic torch. With that attitude in mind, I wonder whether those 3000 police would have done their best during the torch.

    The French government has chosen their side.

    Now we show them ours.

  26. few Couple of questions for Jianshuo or other readers in China

    1) why is the anger against the French especially strong, compared to other nations that also had similiar protests. (i.e. Great Britan and U.S.). From what I saw and read, the protests were fairly similar. Although San Fran had the benefit of learning from London and Paris, and perhaps things were a little better controlled.

    2) Doesn’t Carrefour sell many Chinese made products?

    3) Could you or other Chinese readers explain why the Chinese people generally take criticism/ protest against the Chinese government/ the communist party, so personally. Are the average Chinese that identified with the Governemnt or the party? Or do they truly feel the protests/criticism are actually against the individual Chinese people?

    Anyways, thanks for sharing.

  27. To Henri, Louis XIV or whoever you are:

    Trust me, most Chinese people can live without baguette, croissants, Vuiton bags and L’Oréal.

    Nobody has tried to take away your right to protest on the street in your country. You can protest whatever you want. And of course, Chinese people can choose to purchase or not purchase whatever they want. That’s just the way it is.

    See, ‘proud’, there is your problem. You are just so proud of staying at the side of the ‘good ones’, knowing the absolute ‘truth’ with, of course, your ‘freedom of speech’ and ‘human rights’ in your hands.

    I am quite sure the ‘proud’ you mentioned here make you think you are more superior than the Chinese.

    I am sorry, maybe your brain is too small to see it, you are nothing but a narrow-minded frenchman who has a ‘black-white’ view of the world.

  28. Regarding Wayfarer’s comment “BTW, the torch in Buenos Aires, Argentina today had no trouble”.

    The excerpt below from AFP reveals the probable reasons why the protesters are more muted; the various organisers are just trying to salvage their “non violent’ image.

    Excerpt:

    John Ackerly, president of the International Campaign for Tibet, told a panel discussion organised by Amnesty International that “There is a certainly a danger if people jump in front of it and try to grab the torch, but such actions could sway public opinion against us…”

    Lucie Morillon, of press watchdog Reporters Without Borders, said a repeat of the scenes in London and Paris could hand China a propaganda victory.

    “We want demonstrators to show restraint,” Morillon said. “Violence against the torch could backfire and give ammunition for Chinese propaganda.

    “When you see such incidents as in London and Paris…trying to take a torch from a woman in a wheelchair is giving a bad image to people demonstrating for human rights in China.”

    Soooo, these guys will not apologise for bullying a woman in a wheelchair, but are more concerned that their image will be tarnished. I am really convinced that they love Tibet.

  29. Another unbelievably venomous piece I read was this:

    Excerpt:

    “China’s plan…try to get world sympathy for their OPPRESSIVE NATION by using a CRIPPLE in Jin Jing, the third torchbearer in the FAILED Paris leg of the “Relay of Shame” torch toss. Have the heads of government in China no PRIDE? How low will they stoop to save face if they are willing to use a CRIPPLE in a wheelchair in their Propaganda Campaign?

    Jin Jing from Shanghai should be ASHAMED OF HERSELF for participating in the torch relay…in short, she got what she deserved when protestors tried to extinguish the flame.”

    I know I should be rational and tell myself that this writer is a douche bag. But 1000 deep breaths later, I am still very angry. And let me tell you that I’m not even from the mainland.

  30. Regarding JS opening note, stating the difference in the coverage between CCTV and the Western media, I think it is more than just the Chinese government trying to save face.

    It reveals a difference in the approach between the Chinese media and the West. The Chinese media is pretty much of 大事化小,小事化无 (loosely translated as “converting a major incident to a minor one, and a minor one into none). Its merits are of course debatable.

    As for the Western media which is dependent on sales, well, nothing else sells like sensational news. This explains the increasing use of incitory language and leading statements, journalistic integrity be damned.

  31. We don’t need more boycotts but more open, honest and frank dialogue to try to iron out differences and to resolve any misunderstandings.

  32. @Confused, good question. I guess that is the key questions many people may ask.

    First question, why anger against France is stronger. For several reasons. Reports from blog and message from people in France described that it is not just the protesters, many people (bigger portion of common people) in Paris joined the violent protests (I saw many pictures with body attack). Besides that, three particular events gave people strong impressions about Paris: 1) Disabled girl Jin Jing was attacked on the wheelchair by Pro-Tibet protester. 2) The Paris Mayor hanged banners in the city hall, an action perceived as representing the city, instead of just protestres. 3) The headline about “the miserable defeat of China” in the major newspaper. This is my guess about why anger against Paris is stronger than UK, and US. For UK and US, based on what I learned, people still think it is the Pro-Tibet group who made the trouble. For Paris, it is clearly the government (and some extends it to the people there) who are anti-China. This perception may be far from the truth, just as China’s image in the international stage, but that is how the whole thing is “PERCEIVED”.

    For the second question about there are Chinese product in Carrefour, as I said, boycotting is an immature way of handling problems. It is based on the simple judgment that the world is completely black and white, and boycotting French Products “ONLY impact those French”. However, the current world is a well connected world, and it is so hard to distinguish who owns which part. If you ask people who boycotting some product, they may also get very confused, and may ask back: “Well. It seems so. So, tell me what’s next I can do just to make them feel bad?” I want to make it very clear that I don’t like what is happening in Paris, especially those *violent* protesters, I don’t think boycott really do the work.

    For the last question, about why Chinese tend to take criticism for government so personally, there are two reasons, I think. First, due to 50 years of education by the current government, people have formed the thinking logic that the Party = the Government = the whole country. To the extreme extend, people are educated that the Party is the mother, and Chairman is the Sun…. This believe may fade out a little bit in the last 20 years, but is still there. For this part, I think it is more of a problem in China, instead of the rest world.

    The second reason: because it is Olympic. If it were not Olympic Games, people may not take it so personally. Olympic is a dream of Chinese people for 100 years (please note: this is long before the current Communist Party was formed). Being invaded by many countries in the 1800s, and being a backward country for even longer, people in China do want to find a change to get back to the center stage of the world. That is the dream of almost everyone. For people outside China, it may be hard to understand the importance of this Game to normal people in China. So, by definition, Olympic don’t have too much to do with the government, in some sense. Unlike people in many other country who just take it as a sport event, people in China don’t think it that way. So, because of this, any attack to the Olympic Game in Beijing is the attack to the people.

    Just as I told delegation from the US Congress, it is like the big fat wedding ceremony of the PEOPLE, not the government. Ruin the opening ceremony of a company is not a big deal for its employees, but to ruin someone’s wedding is completely another story.

    In conclusion, I won’t say who is right or wrong in these unpleasant days. However, I do hope people understand each other more. I hope people in China to understand not to take political protest too personal, and hope people in France and other country to understand, people will DEFINITELY take it personal if you attack Olympic Game.

  33. Jian Shou:

    Just as you want the foreigners to understand that the Chinese sees the Olympics as their “wedding” and that is the reason that the are hurt personally when there are protests against it, you have to understand that the foreigners do not see the Olympics in that way and they believe the protest against the Olympics is a protest against the ruling class of the host country rather than its citizens.

    I was in the US during the Tiananmen Sq massacre and you should have seen the outcry against the Chinese government when they crushed their Han brothers and sisters. You have to realize to the foreigners that the Tibetans currently are seen in the same sympathetic light as the Hans who were crushed in Tiananmen Square. The way I see it, much of the criticism against the Chinese government from the rest of the world stems from what they saw them do against their own people in Tiananmen. So if you realize that this is the source of these protest, you might think about this in a different way.

    Just a disclaimer, I am a Chinese American so I think I am seeing this whole thing from both perspectives.

  34. I’ve been tired to argue more, and think its no more value to.

    I prefer co-understanding way and a peace world.

    but this time, I DO START TO HATE MOST OF THE frEncH !!

    ..

    btw, in the way to anti-anti-China war, ‘This is not paRis!’ is cool and expressive.

    I would TRY to avoid business with French and avoid to know them !

  35. 今天挪威晚邮报一篇分析文章讲述历年抵制奥运事件的后果,结论: 运动员是最大受害者。而对被抵制的东道主国家来说,抵制的效果统统微乎其微。

    最近看到国内有网友发起抵制法国商品和法国游的运动。反映当然是有赞同的也有怀疑的。

    俺个人暂不确定抵制法国商品和法国游是对还是错。不过俺相信,大批普通中国民众长期抵制法国商品和法国游于法国的后果,比对被抵制奥运或奥运开幕式的中国(如果发生的话)的后果, 要严重的多。

    给你个发生在丹麦的例子,丹麦报纸《于尔兰邮报》2005年底刊登了一系列讽刺穆斯林先知穆罕默德的漫画,全世界穆斯林普通民众激烈抗议,同仇敌忾,长期抵制丹麦的奶类和肉类产品,乐高玩具等丹麦产品也在伊斯兰国家遭抵制,这使得丹麦的出口受到了严重的打击。

    丹麦官方统计数字表明,在今年2月到6月间,丹麦出口下降了15.5%,而对中东地区的贸易额就下跌了一半。

    丹麦国家统计局的有关数字指出,穆斯林主要市场沙特阿拉伯的出口下降了40%,利比亚、叙利亚和也门的出口也显著下跌。

    丹麦官员指出,丹麦的商业损失了1.34亿欧元(1.7亿美元),当中奶类产品受到最严重的打击。

    后来,报社主编通过该报网站发表公开信,就刊登亵渎伊斯兰教漫画一事作出道歉。他在信中承认,这些漫画的发表无可争辩地伤害了众多穆斯林。他为此深感抱歉。丹麦首相也准备派代表团去中东国家做出解释。

    活该!

    穆斯林抵制丹麦产品这件事与中国网友发起抵制法国商品和法国游的原因其实是一样的,都是普通群众的感情被严重伤害。

    如果要抵制达到效果,这个抵制必须是来自大量普通民众的和长期的。

    这篇文章,值得一读 丹麦漫画事件与”文明冲突论 http://www.globalview.cn/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=6912

    其他相关文章 Danish Newspaper Apologizes, Receives Bomb Threat http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=77170&d=1&m=2&y=2006

  36. I take it then that Les Mis has not had much of a run in China. The French love a good demonstration. To the barricades! As Chinese people get more opportunities to come in contact with other countries what Britain and other European countries have know for centuries – the French will protest about anything. All I can say is that it’s just as well it wasn’t French farmers against the Olympic Torch.

    And anyway, if T!bet is part of China and the poor girl was attacked by a T!betan then shouldn’t you be boycotting Chinese goods?

  37. Hi, I’m just a high school student in Shanghai and was attracted by your blog.

    Accorading to what I have known about this affair, I can hardly post any political comments about it.

    I think there’s a small mistake in the article in paragraph “Government or People?”. As far as I remember there are around 1.3 billion people in China not 13 billion.

    P.S: Your blog is very readable :P

  38. to Wayfarer,

    As you can see the response of Jian Shuo Wang to Confused, Chinese is particularly against French/Paris government’s attitude toward China and its people. I have been reading many articles about what’s going on in France long before the torch reply. France is the active supporter to publicly support pro-Tibet protesters. Many French cities/towns have been hanging Tibetan flag in front of their city hall. Many (not minor) French did take a active part in the protest against not only the torch relay but also personal attacks on our Chinese people. I read a lot of accounts from Chinese supporters who were there at their own. Did you see that in other countries? I am at California and I have not yet seen one single case. I also participated in the San Fran torch replay and have a very close confrontation with the pro-Tibet protesters. I feel very strongly that they were very rude compared with the supporters. But I also understand the police did a great job and a handful of protesters can not represent the friendly America people. I can see that, I can feel that. My conclusion is natually against French people and its products.

    Trust me, my major is Finance and I also know boycott is very bad to the world economy. But I just can’t convince myself of any purchase from French brands when I am always reminded by my human memory of the bad feeling. Knowing something bad to the world economy and trying to avoid it doesn’t necessarily mean that perception overrides my personal and natural feeling. Finally, I do appreciate your perspective of reasonableness on the issue.

  39. Boycotting French retailer will be hurting China, because most of the products are probably made in China to begin with. Boycotting Carrefour on a large scale is most likely going to hurt China’s economy and everyone’s bottomline.

  40. The other reason why people boycotting French product is, since it is not allowed to protest (well. Legally speaking, it is allowed, with a permit, but no one can get the permit), boycotting is the only left way to show anger. If people do not boycott, what can people do?

  41. “If people do not boycott, what can people do?”

    Take a step back? Reflect? Ponder? Self-examination? Gain insight? ….. Any time something makes me particularly angry/upset/whatever emotion, I stop and ask myself, “Why did I react like that?”, then use it as a learning experience to better understand myself and why I feel/think/act like I do. Usually, my self-questioning reveals weakness on my part, which is great as it’s important to know oneself and improve. It’s a good life tool, try it.

  42. James Brown is a sage! I agree with his comments fully. Knee jerk reaction never works well. The world is changing dramatically; what goes around comes around. A responsible restraint China hosting a good Olympics games is the best answer to the world. There is a knife hanging over the heart -all Chinese knows that word. Chinese should fight for the last laugh not the last word.

  43. yeah, why not boycotting all western products, just because in the west people have the right to protest and tell their opinion and in china not!

    to everyone this has nothing to do with the olympics, but the olympics are used to get some attention!!!!

    so if the chinese government says the riots in tibet was initiated through the dalai lama, of course there will be people who don’t agree with this statement!

    but if the western media says there are some people who don’t agree that the olympics are held in china, doesn’t mean, that all the westerners are like that!!!! and as you can see they also get arrested for disturbing the public.

    I think it wouldn’t be that big of a story if the chinese government had arrested the people who were rioting in tibet, but they had to tell that it was kind of a political attack and blablabla…

    china has to get more tolerant and that has to start with every chinese…

  44. To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from human right, etc…)

    Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

  45. To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from human right, etc…)

    Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

  46. To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from humann right, etc…)

    Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

  47. ” French boycott Beijing Olympics in Paris, which leads to

    Chinese boycotting French goods, which lead to

    French or European country boycotting Chinese goods, which leads to

    Even bigger boycotting in China…. ”

    ———————–

    With due respect, I think above is utterly rubbish! A classic Chinese chicken shit!

    If this logic goes on, then any affirmative action in the world by anyone will inevitablely lead to a full-scale nuclear war?

    Try to use it to convince American govt on its attitude towards terrorists.

    In “Act of War”, there are plenty examples on how to deal with this kind of situation. Boyccot in SPOT ON as alone as it keeps focusing on its main target, then it’s no EU business!

    European barbarians are always trying to bully weak nations. As long as China is weak, they will keep doing so for another 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years, til the point when you have balls and power to say NO MORE SHIT!

    I was in London when the touch past by my house, and I also went to Paris the following day.

    Do you folks really think Europeans are dumb?

    They don’t understand the diff. bwt the East and the West?

    They don’t understand China?

    They’ve never heard of the word “dignity” ? – as some fellow Chinese obviously have erased it from their DNA since 1840.

    Ehe, don’t kid yourself, will you.

    Let me tell ya: there is no point to back off if you have with you a THICK BASEBALL BAT , becasue it is the only thing that they understand without a mistake.

    K. Wang

  48. I ‘ve already thown away my Kenzo, Chanel, Aqua Di Gio, together with LÓreal shower, haircare shit. And since now on, I’ll drink Spansih/Italian wine instead (no carrefour here), to show my personal support for boycott.

    CHINA, GO!

  49. It is an honor for us that the dictatorial government of China supports a boycott of our goods.

    For your information, the word “French” comes from the “francs” which means “men who are free”. We will revolt against anyone who wants to take us that freedom. And we support freedom of thoughs and opinions everywhere, like the right to say “free Corsica” or to show a Corsican flag.

  50. It is an honnor to be boycotted by chinese dictatorial government like it was to be boycotted by americans during Irak war.

    THX

  51. ” It is an honor for us that the dictatorial government of China supports a boycott of our goods.

    For your information, the word “French” comes from the “francs” which means “men who are free”. We will revolt against anyone who wants to take us that freedom. And we support freedom of thoughs and opinions everywhere, like the right to say “free Corsica” or to show a Corsican flag.”

    ————————————

    Richard, try to get what I said clear before you volunteer some info:

    I don’t give a damn about commie CCP supports boycott or not. I am not even from China mainland. It is Chinese worldwide who will boycott you !

    Try to take your freedom?

    Did the Olympic touch want to take your freedom???

    Did the disabled athelets want to take your freedom???

    Or you violently revolted to take their freedom???

    Since you revolt maniacs love freedom so much, why don’t you revolt against your Sarkozy? cuz he has been sending more troops to foreign land for mass killing, which violently oppresses Muslin’s freedom???

    IT IS NOT A HONOR , IT IS A SHAME!

  52. no ffrench good ? ok… so no french technology… no french holliday… we don’t care of what the chinese people want to do with our good… and our goods are not obviously the best (you can choose spanish or italian wine , why not chinese wine ?)… to do the boycott it’s your sole liberty…. and with the time you will understand that what we defended was only freedom, even if you don’t like this.

    french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

  53. no ffrench good ? ok… so no french technology… no french holliday… we don’t care of what the chinese people want to do with our good… and our goods are not obviously the best (you can choose spanish or italian wine , why not chinese wine ?)… to do the boycott it’s your sole liberty…. and with the time you will understand that what we defended was only freedom, even if you don’t like this.

    french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

  54. french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

    If no, start stripping right now… LOL.

    P.S. I think they don’t export Chinese wine. Otherwise, there is a potential to wipe off Italian, Spanish and French wine all together – not an effective boycott tool then.

  55. You should better not to buy wine if you are going to buy Spanish or Italian wine !!

    It’s your right to not buy french wine but it seems to be the truth that France is THE country of wine! However, I know that there are some good wine in South Africa or Australia but in fact there are a lot of french people who went in these both countries in order to make some wine. If there are good wines there it is thanks to our wine producers.

    I think that french people in Paris didn’t protest against chinese but in order to show that in China there are people who aren’t treated as human at all. I heard an example of a Tibetan girl who said that chinese authorities stole her diploma in order to sell it to another chinese. Do you think it’s right?

    Or another example, a tibetan man who has been sent into jail during 13 years and he was tortured just because he carried a tibetan flag. Do you think there is a reason to accept such a thing?

    I don’t think so!

    I know that some of you is going to say I’m wrong and that is french media which tells false info. But you should better think about how china’s government has formed your way of thinking since 50 years!

    Rémy, a french student living in south of France

  56. Boycott A vs. boycott B is a fair action. Let the French boycott the opening ceremony because it is our way of signaling that we do not agree with what is happening in Tibet. Let the Chinese boycott the French product in return, so that you can express your feelings to.

    It just has to stop there afterwards. I do believe that China needs France and Europe, and that Europe & France need China as well. Moving both parties away from each other will only deserve both of us. I have two passports (a French & a German one). Watch the point of no retrun in history, when things go too fast and too far. It happened not so long ago.

    BTW, did you know that Goebbels invented in 1936 the tourch journey from Athen to Berlin. Olympics are a political game, and it is the politician that manipulate us…

    I do believe in EU – china friendships. I had mabo-tofu for diner yesterday, loved it !!!!!

  57. Why so many French friend are still proud of their “freedom”? OK, I respect you enjoy your freedom, Chinese also enjoy their economy boom.

    Chinese government is a government of dictatorship so Chinese should get angered? Chinese enjoy the economic development to get more economic power. Chinese trust their own government given the fact. Do you think French would give their money to feed Chinese? No way. You government of freedom has given you self-pride, unemployment and time to express. If the government can have the poeple living better and improved, why complain? complain for what, too fast development?

    French people don’t don’t think you can represent the EU. Chinese is boycotting France only, not the EU. Don’t bother EU please.

    Calm down? Chinese calm down for long time enough and seems they were not heard. When the boycott voice is getting louder, the French suddenly jump out to yell. Interesting.

    You are talking human right. Why you don’t ask the majority of Chinese people? Chinese people is the only ‘victims’ if China has human right abuse, not French. You are appreciated to say something for the Chinese, but you can not distort the voice of their own.

    French is always proud of their everything. I have admit French wine is the best for many people. But Chinese will suffer a lot if they don’t buy French wines? Even Chinese buy, it will taste different becasue Chinese realize how many, if not all, French are full of hatred of China.

    Shamed to compromise, or dignified to sacrifice? Chinese prefer the latter for sure.

    If you think China “brainwash” the Chinese, why there are so many different voices in China for various issues? Chinese is not stupid. 50 millions Chinese are living overseas, and the louder voice of boycott on French goods comes from them. Are they being brain washed by China government while living outside China? Make no sense at all.

  58. Why so many French friend are still proud of their “freedom”? OK, I respect you enjoy your freedom, Chinese also enjoy their economy boom.

    Chinese government is a government of dictatorship so Chinese should get angered? Chinese enjoy the economic development to get more economic power. Chinese trust their own government given the fact. Do you think French would give their money to feed Chinese? No way. You government of freedom has given you self-pride, unemployment and time to express. If the government can have the poeple living better and improved, why complain? complain for what, too fast development?

    French people don’t don’t think you can represent the EU. Chinese is boycotting France only, not the EU. Don’t bother EU please.

    Calm down? Chinese calm down for long time enough and seems they were not heard. When the boycott voice is getting louder, the French suddenly jump out to yell. Interesting.

    You are talking human right. Why you don’t ask the majority of Chinese people? Chinese people is the only ‘victims’ if China has human right abuse, not French. You are appreciated to say something for the Chinese, but you can not distort the voice of their own.

    French is always proud of their everything. I have to admit French wine is the best for many people. But Chinese will suffer a lot if they don’t buy French wines? Even Chinese buy, it will taste different becasue Chinese realize how many, if not all, French are full of hatred of China.

    Shamed to compromise, or dignified to sacrifice? Chinese prefer the latter for sure.

    If you think China “brainwash” the Chinese, why there are so many different voices in China for various issues? Chinese is not stupid. 50 millions Chinese are living overseas, and the louder voice of boycott on French goods comes from them. Are they being brain washed by China government while living outside China? Make no sense at all.

  59. And French friends please don’t think the EU is country and it acts like a country. Do you see any voice from other EU countries talking about the issue? In fact they are more than happy because Chinese who previously buy French goods will turn to buy goods from Spain, Italy and the UK etc. They will be the beneficials at the expense of France. So they would not speak loud against the boycott. Let’s see.

  60. I am french and i love all the people.

    I don’t hate anyone nor Chinese !

    I like China, it is a powerful country who has now a good economy. I don’t know persons who don’t like China, but yes i know persons who think that the Rights in China are not very respected.

    The demonstration is not against China and Chinese but for the freedom although Your government has not totally wrong because a big country need to be supervised for harmony.

    Yes, China is not our country, but it is our freedom, anchored for a long time to us. There was tibetans in this demonstration and because they were in France, we don’t deny them this freedom !

    Why boycott France ? there was not all Paris in this demonstration and Paris is just a town in all our country ! It is always media who control ours actions :(

    The boycott against France is not a good way face to a minority of demonstrators !

    Me, i don’t agree with this displaced demonstration but with that boycott too. You have the right to receive the olympics games.

    Peace and love.

  61. >I don’t give a damn about commie CCP supports boycott or not. I am not even from China mainland. It is

    >Chinese worldwide who will boycott you !

    Please do boycott us.

    The CCP is strongly encouraging it, and it’s a sign France is right (just like we were right on Iraq). Beside, all the nationalistic feelings that go with it are stupid, don’t you think?

    Looks like one more attempt to mask the real questions : why did they jail a non-violent political opponent for 6 years? why shouldn’t people be allowed to say “free Tibet” if they want to? (no matter if they’re “right” or “wrong”, they should be allowed to express themselves). Without freedom of speech, no freedom of the press, no opponents – handy for the government hey? they can just do whatever they want.

    Personally, I am very happy that anyone can say very bad things about France. As Voltaire said, “I may disagree with you what you say, but I will fight up to death so that you have the right to say it”.

    >Try to take your freedom?

    >

    >Did the Olympic touch want to take your freedom???

    >

    >Did the disabled athelets want to take your freedom???

    >

    >Or you violently revolted to take their freedom???

    Media attention is the preferred means of the people to express their point of view. No media means nobody will hear you. That may look stupid, but that’s how things work in a country with freedom of speech and freedom of press. But you can close the TV if you don’t want to see that.

    >Since you revolt maniacs love freedom so much, why don’t you revolt against your Sarkozy? cuz he has

    >been sending more troops to foreign land for mass killing, which violently oppresses Muslin’s freedom???

    Every week there are protests. Eventually politicians are forced to change their politics. The protesters are NOT put in jail; and so can act freely. This is the main difference.

    As you see, you’re not far of that – just try to get (really) independant newspapers; free association of people; free election, and that’s it!

    So when will you revolt?

  62. If you are thinking, you know that you can’t shut people up. Nor can you take my identity away. I am a proud Chinese. Nobody on this earth can take that away from me.

    I said what I said because I care. Some of you don’t care if I care or not… it goes both ways… tough, isn’t it. As long as the platform is open, as long as Wang allows different voices, you’ll see me around. You pick your way to show your understanding of national pride. I have my way of looking at it. I am indeed honored to be the target of these matters.

    One World, One Dream. Sounds great. What kind of World will that be, a world with one voice, one color, one way of thinking? No, thank you! Unity that doesn’t allow different voices to be heard is brainwashed. Societies which don’t allow disagreements are brainwashed societies.

    Tibet is a problem… it doesn’t matter if we (Han Chinese) like it or not. How and when it can be solved, I don’t know. But all Chinese have to face it. If you really love the motherland, you make sure that the government don’t solve problems like this with guns. If you don’t, one day that same gun may be at your face too.

    China is big and already powerful… what happened surrounding this Olympic proves that to all. It is about time to get rid of the victim-mentality. International fairs are not about feelings anyway. Either you learn how to listen and communicate with people who don’t agree with you, or, you shut. It is your choice to be hurt (on feelings) or not. If you choose to be hurt… nobody can stop you.

  63. @Remy : Your country is no more perfect than ours so you can stop the hot air. Where was your people’s evolved humanity when you helped the Nazis kill Jews ? The pitiful smattering of resistence is still a joke to your saviours. Your treatment of Algerians is nothing to be proud of. And thanks too for nuking the pacific and blowing up the Rainbow Warrior. You go deal with your history and we will deal with ours. France is no bastion of democracy just because it gives out silly statues with torches.

  64. @Richard – I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with your post (you are obviously very passionate – given your controversial proclamation that ‘we were right on Iraq’ – millions would disagree with you) – as I have said many times on these threads, it is not my position to do so (as an outsider)… most non-Chinese do not understand the intricacies of the situation or the history leading up until now (no matter how much they -we – think we are knowledgable or how strong the views).

    I would however like to make a brief comment on your statement: “why did they jail a non-violent political opponent for 6 years?”… on this point, I think it’s open to interpretation – it depends on what one’s definition of ‘non-violent’ is. I’d like to take the opportunity to repost this link from a couple of week’s ago (apologies to those people whose servers are on the China mainland and may be affected by the GFW).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

    On the ‘non-violent political opponent’ descriptor, I think the jury is still out – does a person who makes 95% of his innocent country people suffer dire hardship and starvation under a ‘theocratic’ regime (in the name of religion) allow that person to get away unscathed because he is ‘non-violent’ by not physically hurting someone with a weapon? In other circumstances, what the theocracy had done in Tibet could be considered ‘crime against humanity’ and perpertrators could be subject to more than just 6 years jail (could it not?).

    Once again, I am not taking sides here – I am just suggesting that you should not learn your history from western media. Especially as it relates to China and Tibet. Take care and God bless!!

  65. @GN : I totally agree with you.

    We MUST learn how to listen and communicate with people who don’t agree with us.

    Voices of patriotism must be heard, along with traitors.

    Lets not forget jackasses also deserves their 15 seconds of fame.

    Of course, choosing which group to side is a personal decision.

  66. To Warfarer and others who shows their understanding:

    Thank you a lot and what you said help me calm down myself. I am a Chinese, I stayed in the US for 7 years and now I live in Singapore. After reading your words, I really want to express my appreciations.

    To those who are against Chinese:

    Actually at the very beginning, we were angry with CNN, BBC and other medias who use pictures, which show Nepal police repressed the Tibetans, to against China government to say that it was the Chinese Police who repressed the Tibetan protestor. At this stage, some overseas Chinese got angry, but not too many, for many of us not put much attention on it. We were used to so-called (we always called CNN BBS and etc. like this) western major medias that they seldom say anything good about China. Then the torch relay began, the media put all their attention on the Tibetan protestors pretending that all the common Chinese were not there although there were more Chinese in London and Paris to support China host for the games. And on the TV and internet, the Nepal police was still stated as Chinese police. Especially in Paris, when we watched that Jin Jing the girl on wheelchair was attacked by a protestor, the angry became a outrage among most Chinese. Paris said that there were how many police there, but we were so angry that they could not even protect a girl. So we doubted if they did their work properly or even on-purpose to let the protestor did what he did.

    These brought back our bad memories. At these stage, the topic about Tibet is less important (In our oppinion, people outside China knew nothing or quite little about Tibet and entire China, but scold us for it, which is not only ridiculous but on bad purpose.), the topic in our eyes become a excuse for some western medias and governments to against all the Chinese.

    It is time for both or more sides to calm down to think about it. The main problem is cultural difference between Chinese and western people.

    Chinese is a race that hate wars for we have such enough wars during our too long history. We just hate wars. So after Tang Dynasty, people tend to be dove-oriented. That’s why during the world war II, many Chinese chose only to tolerate, so a famouse Chinese writer said in a novel that only after ManNian (a kind, pure and innocent Chinese woman) knew the need to fight against the Japanese, the majority of Chinese peopel knew to stand up to fight, in the novel she got raped by Japanese soldiers and at last she got killed or committed suicide, which I forgot, but as to women in the past all the same, after getting raped she could not live with it.

    And we are also a people that treat others better than ourselves. That is always a pity for us. For Chinese inside China, China goverment always treat its own people not so good, but sometimes gives in on foreign matters. That really has a deep cultural root. Many says Chinese like to save face, that is right. In fact, not only save face but to give our best to others “有朋自远方来,不亦悦乎”. In a poor family, even they cannot get enough food, they will offer the guest all their food. That is not a show, that is from their true heart. Now, China is not so hungry any more, in some part, some people are rich, they want to give others a big treat as the games. But people don’t want to take the treat and even hit us in the face. Some westerners may think we are so stupid, yes, we are that stupid.

    And on the other hand, westerners think we are so smart or even sneaky or furtive. That’s also true. For example, We Chinese will bargain a lot and try to get something as low as possible. In China, if someone like me buy something without bargain, he/she will be scolded as fool. As my mom always say me “缺心眼”. We live this way, like it or not, this is a part of our culture. But maybe it is strange enough for some westerners, that we bargain with dealors and at the same time we alway willing to lend money to our friends. That’s why if some Chinese in the US have financial problem with their house loan, they seldom get bankrupt, they are easy to find friends to borrow money. Another example is we seldom speak out if we are angry with someone or our boss. We will murmur within our friends, we won’t speak directly to the person. Our friends always say “忍了吧” means just tolerate it. We are afraid to offend others to make them unhappy, we also afraid of losing our job, so sometimes we look sneaky. This time, many Chinese stand up and speak out, that means they are really really really angry. “忍字心头一把刀”, tolerate (忍) means one(一 -> 、) knife(刀) on top of a heat(心). When we cannot bear the knife any more we will erupt a lot of power. But again we do not want war, we only want some understanding. Boycott is just a way that we learn from you and try to get your attention. So pity of us, right?

    And for us, we need understand your culture, like we do not care much about our privacies like you do. So we need cherish your privacies. We do not quite understand your media and government only represent themselves not all the people. (Our sense of group can compare your sense of individual—-that’s one of the major culture difference between Chinese and Westerners.) So we tend to think the whole people against us.

    Cultural difference is such a massive topic that nobody alone can handle it. I just want to point out there are differences, and hope everyone including me shows some understanding to others. No need to agree with us, and no need to make friends with us, but only some understanding.

    Thanks a lot for your attention and patience or even toleration.

  67. While I don’t claim Western governments to be ‘clean’ or ‘non violent’ the difference between George Bush and Hu Jin Tao is that george bush’s term will end after a total of 8 years in office. George Bush’s party can lose the next elections and through the power of numbers Americans can ‘voice’ their disapproval of their government’s actions through a VOTE – something which the Chinese system lacks.

    Secondly China has to stop acting like a victim because it is not. When you boast the largest army in the world and lie about your military budget, when you are one of the world’s fastest growing economies, yet refuse to increase the value of your currency to reflect that as is the accepted practice of economics in order to retain overseas’ dependance on chinese labour at the expese of the overworked poor, and humourously when you ‘paint’ fake grass in order to make IOC inspectors choose you to host the Olympics you are NOT a victim.

    Surely with so many countries agreeing on China’s hand in the Darfur crisis, in powering Burma’s military dictatorship, in taking over Tibet by holding and killing peaceful monks with guns, and by blocking many moves in the UN by voting against resolutions that would see the end of the crisis in Darfur and Burma, how can you still claim China’s innocence? The Chinese government has a habit of providing ‘violent’ and ‘corrupt’ governments with weapons and then claiming that they cannot interfere in the business of other countries affairs. I’m sorry, but this irresponsible money hungry dance has gone on for too long.

    China has a huge influence in the world and they believe that the Olympics is a testament to this. Unfortunately I and many others on this planet believe this influence so far has been of greed and violence, and a way to insult this money hungry, trigger happy Chinese Government is for the average joe like me to support boycotts of these Olympic games.

  68. Hi! I’m french but asian! From now, french people have very racist words for asian people in France! I am not chinese but for them, it’s the same. So, to answer french racism, boycott them! Chinese people are not chinese government. French people are not Sarkozy. China don’t have to do anything with France because french vanity is too high! if human is too important for people, the Olympics in Sydney should have to be boycott too! why doesn’t nobody do it? Austria killed aborigen for a long time and treat them like animals, so, why nobody was boycott them?

  69. Hello all of you.

    I am slightly nervous about writing here as I am involved in the protest about Tibet, Burma and certain people arrested in China shortly before the torch ceremony in London. However as I am resident in Switzerland, I never had any intention of taking part in demonstrations. My activities have been to write polite letters to politicians and prominent people asking them to raise these issues, when they have the chance, with those in power in China. I do not hate the Chinese people, I do not approve of any form of violence. I certainly do not approve of the people who either tried to grab the torch or attack those given the honour of carrying it.

    You may feel that I have no right to question the chinese government and that I am ill informed about China, but as I read comments here, I feel that your intensions are basically good. That you are trying to find a way of letting people know how you as individuals feel, about events that are completely out of your control, that no-one seems to be able to stop.

    I believe you are all able to understand that that is all the ordinary people in Europe and America are trying to do.

    Maybe we are all ill-informed. I would like the chance to listen to you and discuss with you. Thanks,Jana.

  70. Hello all of you,

    I read all the message, what i can say it’s :

    It’s easiest to criticize or explain that we are right…..

    Someone said you limit yourself to think in black or White…… or 0 and 1 … but nothing in the nature is extreme… all is grey….. only the Man are not aware about that

    So all of you are right ..and all of you are wrong..

    Instead to try to reach a bad situation… and it’s easy…to do that…life is like that..and very often it’s the root of the war…

    Try to take the hardest road….. .. try to find the conditions to solve the probleme without asking anything to the other side…

    … what are you thinking about me ?? am french guy or Chinese Guy ??? ??? easy as you can read my english is very bad….. …lolll

    So I’m half French half croatian..my wife is half French half Algerian.. we live in France..obviously.. .. and we’ll go to Shanghai for 3 years with our little children…..And the only think that we are proud of is that we think all countries, all people, all culture are interesting… it’s our inheritance and it’s must be protected

    Finally, ..sorry if i don’t used any warlike word… you can say….it’s easy to write these things …when you see the problem at the tibet or in our French suburbs .. i’ll reply “Yes you’re Right… but it could be the beginning of what i hope… ..even if i’m not a descendant of confusius….or Luther King

    Best regards

    Seb

  71. If I could add that it is a little unfair to single out the French as people travelled to Paris from all over Europe to demonstrate, including England and Switzerland. Not that that excuses anything. Jana

  72. I am french, i live in shanghai and i will boycoot french products in China.

    some french people are stupid crazy WRONG about the way to deal with china people on tibet riot

    wangjianshuo, i love your blog

    I AM NOT ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  73. Dear Mr Robert (lollll)

    tkink about the add value of your message ??? ?? hummm , Good !! you’re progressed …

    I am completely deafened by your level of discussion…….for the moment all of you are not able to take the good way. …..i would say …the only way….

    to support the hatred, the extremism, the nationnalism certainly is exciting and very human…. but that is not the good direction (take any book of history… seed of war)… who can understand that??….

    nobody ???

    So ….Sorry …. and bye……. seb

  74. As a common person in China, I hpoe everything is calm for China with the international society and within China.

    The reason is quite simple, calm means everything for Chinese economy and culture developing.

    If the contry is rich then the common people can get a better life and public insurance.

    Personally, I don’t support any violent political revolution, instead, I like internal peaceful revolution.

    So, if anyone trying to do something causing unrest to China society, I will be the first one standing up and against him.

    The current Chinese goverment is trying to do something good for the Chinese people, maybe not their best, but which goverment is doing their best? No goverment is perfect.

    We common people don’t care about that whether the goverment is socialism or otherlism.

    If the goverment is good, I’m with them, if the goverment is bad, I will be the first to against them.

    If anyone want to challenge China our good Chinese goverment, I will against them.

  75. Folks advocating a French product boycott seem to forget that the life-cycle of French products passes through the chinese ecnomy. . . hence a boycott of French products WILL hurt chinese producers, (granted that this will occur perhaps indrectly).

    Perhaps an appropriate response from French folks would be to boycott the games. What a farce the ‘precious’ olympics would be if nobody turned up. . .

  76. feilong i like your message…and hope the majority of the chinese think like you….

    noboby is perfect… and no governement is perfect

    lot of world challenges arrive…climatic change…petrol….hunger…poverty.. and we must be together to raise them… …add one more it’s not useful… :(

    so… i’ll arrive for 3 years at shanghai….and it’ll be a good experience… i’m sure…… meet a other culture is always a good experience….. … for you…and for me…

    seb

  77. Feilong, I can relate to what you are saying. When Tony Blair was first elected, I felt he was doing good things for Britain (the peace agreement in N, Ireland for example), so I voted for him again. When he decided to invade Iraq, i thought he was wrong, so I voted for someone else. But knowing British history, I do listen to opinion from outside Britain, as we have got things so wrong in the past, and I don’t want us to get things wrong in the future. Wish I had a time-machine sometimes.

  78. phil style

    answering by a boycott against a boycott… is always a bad think…..according to me…

    seb

  79. Oh yes, Congrats guys, you got your protest on the major news-channels in the west ;-)

    Lets hope the coverage is not biased and distorted like the anti-Tibet protest. The western media only showed the violent protests not the peaceful ones.

  80. @Jianshuo

    Hi there, you are mentioned in a BBC article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7347821.stm

    I am not sure if you are able to read this article in Shanghai, so I am producing it here….

    Cheers

    XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

    China online: Tibet and torch reaction

    Over the past few weeks Chinese bloggers and people on internet forums have been reacting to events in Tibet and the protests disrupting the torch relay.

    This is a summary of some of the trends so far.

    BOYCOTTING FRANCE

    ================

    Blogs, internet forums and text messages circulating in China have urged consumers to boycott French goods in response to the protests that accompanied the torch relay in Paris.

    Popular anger at chaotic scenes which saw pro-Tibet protesters grab the flame from Paralympic fencer Jin Jing has been inflamed by detailed accounts posted on the internet by eyewitnesses.

    The blog EastSouthWestNorth translated the most notable of these posts from popular Chinese internet forums and newspapers.

    One bystander waiting by the Seine for the torch to pass found himself involved in the scuffle for the torch. He recounted his experience on popular Chinese-language forum Tianya.

    “The brave girl lowered her head and used her back to shield the torch. The thug pulled her shoulder back and hit her… Tears rained out of my eyes. I was sad and angry. Here was an unarmed girl who was handicapped, and the thug had to hit her?”

    The anger and the bewilderment at the actions of the protesters is palpable in one of the response posts: “Who is abusing human rights? Who is bringing violence to this world?”

    Lists of products and brands to boycott, including Louis Vuitton and French retailer Carrefour, have been widely circulated.

    Blogger Wang Jian Shuo says several of his friends have started to boycott French products and describes the impact of recent events on his own thinking: “If you need an example, I am the person in China who were turned from pro-France to anti-France within few days. .. I don’t think France is a friendly country at all.”

    “DON’T BE TOO CNN”

    ===============

    The latest ditty to catch the imagination of the Chinese blogs and chatrooms is “Don’t be too CNN” – a musical retort to the perceived bias of western media outlets such as CNN and the BBC.

    “Don’t be too CNN”, broadly intended to mean “don’t ignore the truth”, has a music video which has been posted on many blogs and forums in China. The lyric has assumed the status of a cult catchphrase.

    There are at least two versions of the song circulating. One version features a young woman singing about CNN’s coverage of events in Tibet with screen grabs from the CNN website.

    Another is set to the tune of Britney Spears’ 1998 hit, Baby One More Time, and denounces both CNN and the BBC. In one scene from the video for that version the emblems of both organisations are emblazoned on a woman’s buttocks.

    One of the biggest Chinese language online portal sites, Sina.com, has a popular page: “Don’t be too CNN, fire to the Western media.”

    CAMPAIGNS AGAINST INDIVIDUALS

    ==========================

    John Kennedy, who translates and collates highlights from the Chinese blogosphere for Global Voices, has highlighted instances where the online community has targeted certain individuals – and even taken its opposition offline.

    He cites the example of Grace Wang, a Chinese student at Duke University in the US, who was spotted by other overseas Chinese taking part in a Free Tibet protest, which led to what he describes as “torrents of horrid abuse and at least one lengthy human flesh search engine witch hunt” which began on the Chinese language online portal Tianya.

    The EastSouthWestNorth blog talks about “human flesh search engines” as a phenomenon where an online community is mobilised to track down specific individuals or facts.

    In this case a friend of the student concerned has written to Global Voices to say that the harassment was so serious that the student’s home in China was attacked with rocks.

    An internet manhunt – complete with “Wanted” posters – for the man who allegedly wrestled the torch from Paralympic athlete Jin Jing has also been launched on the Chinese language anti-CNN site.

    The media monitoring blog Danwei highlights the case of Chang Ping, a journalist and blogger who was labelled as a traitor on China.com forums – criticism which also made its way to the newspapers.

    Chang Ping was attacked for his essay “How to find the truth about Lhasa” in which he says: “If we use nationalism as the weapon to resist the Westerners, then how can we persuade the ethnic minorities to abandon their nationalism and join the mainstream nation-building?”

    ENGAGING CHINESE NETIZENS

    ======================

    The disillusionment and outrage in China at the torch protests and the perceived bias of the western media is evident across countless blogs and bulletin boards.

    Many commentators have said that the protests over Tibet have only served to strengthen Chinese nationalism rather than evoke sympathy for the Tibetan cause.

    Sina.com has a petition against the Western media which has reportedly accumulated millions of signatures. Chinese language bulletin board Tiexue (Iron blood) has also hosted outpourings of anger.

    In her blog RConversation, Rebecca McKinnon co-founder of Global Voices Online and assistant professor at Hong Kong University’s journalism centre, says: “Lots of Chinese people now view the Western media, human rights groups, and Western leaders’ criticisms of their country as part of the Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful.”

    She also points to the blog by an expatriate in China, Mutant Palm, who has been watching and commenting on the fallout from Tibet and torch protests online.

    He tracked initial reaction to events in Tibet on Chinese versions of mobile phone social networks such as Fanfou. He argued in one early post that people should try and engage directly with Chinese “netizens” on networks such as Fanfou and Twitter in the spirit of constructive dialogue.

    “Its time to start trying some things instead of just throwing our hands in the air and dismissing the other side as brainwashed, indoctrinated or oppressed. There’s life out there folks, try making contact,” he says.

  81. @LIANG : The most part of all our demonstrations are as it :o

    There is men who want to show they don’t agree -> they don’t know the truth and then : this demonstration.

    Ours knowledges of Occidentals and Orientals are both bads -> more discution should be good :(

  82. I started out in support of the boycott, as a show of support to my country and displeasure against the french. I felt that my quiet show of protest would be sufficient.

    I was quite shocked and saddened when I saw the sea of protesters outside Carrefour. I think this is wrong. We can choose the decision we made but we should not harass people do do otherwise. I do not see someone walking into Carrefour as a traitor. He just needs to buy something. Carrefour has a right to do business here. Everyone, please show some restraint. I am afraid we have just lowered ourselves to the protesters’ level. Where is the dignity in this ??

    I am very sad.

  83. Again, I will buy more French products than ever at this very occasion, just the same as a couple of years ago when I bought a lot more Japanese products than usual.

    I love China, my motherland. But I believe the current Beijing government is reactionary and I boycott the upcoming Olympics.

  84. In many African countries, local languages is not spoken as official language becuase of there is only one language being forced to learn – French. The same with the rest of Africa and Central and South America. But now the French is teaching how China should do to Tibet – seems she has a short memory.

    The Chinese is a nation that respects others. Yet if others do not respect her, do not then be surprised by the boycott and burning of national flags.

    I will not go to Carefour because of my anger.

  85. How can you boycott the olympics it has nothing to do with politics, it is something to do with people from all around the world that participate in it. And it is wrong to relate chineese government with Olympics. You can boycott chineese government for what they are doing in Tibet separatly.

    I think that Chineese people are doing the right thing by boycotting french goods. France is in no position to boycott the olympic games that the whole chineese nation was getting ready for. I think french should boycott themselves for their racism!!!!

    I think that the whole world should boycott france and england for those attacks on flame cariers aspecialy Jin Jing, they are like animals no respect for other people. And western media is biased to the max.

  86. A Russian asking how you can boycott the olympics?

    Sorry still no pictures on the BBC, maybe you should smash something.

    Congrats on your state-sponsored demonstration. :-)

  87. I boycott Beijing Olympics because Beijing is using the Olympics as a tool to serve its propaganda, exactly the same as what Nazi Germany was doing back in 1936. Yes, I boycott most TV channels and newspapers in China for the same reason.

    I would not boycott China’s efforts that benefit the public’s welfare and in the same time do anything possible to avoid/minimize any negative effects out of goodwill.

  88. For all Wendy`s in China…

    “I will not go to Carrefour any more, and I won’t consider French cars in the future.”

    Q1: How many of Carrefour staff are foreigners, respectively French?

    Q2: How many goods offered at Carrefour are French goods?

    Q3: Where is your French car bought in China built?

    Your answers Wendy?

    Yeah, let´s bash foreign companies in China, as we are capable to do without them. Are your really capable to do it…? I doubt is, I highly doubt it that China will be today´s China without any foreign companies in China.

    Can you imagine what will happen when there is a “No Made in China products!” ban coming up? Can you…?

    m2c

    gweilo

  89. China should respect the views of everybody. Allow discussions with Tibet and allow democracy. We do not approve of China government. China should tell government to allow democracy.

  90. Dear Wangjiangshuo and other visitors

    I am a oversea Chinese doing research on international issues, I was born after 80 and I have been lived in the west for years, our generation are remarked by western media as the ‘me generation’ because we are grow up under western influence which focuse on individualism. The reason I mention this is to show I am unlikely a member of alleged ‘brainwashed Chinese’.

    I would like add one reason why Chinese people take attach personally. Its not all about government propaganda.

    Political China and Ethincal China a two related concept, they are not identical, but very often, people (both within or outside China) do not aware the difference when talk about it.

    You can see in those recent pro-China protests around world, many participants are not educated by the Chinese government, the protests includes Taiwanese and oversea born Chinese, even those left China mainland for the difference in political views in during the 80s, they are obvious not the ‘victim’ of the ‘propaganda’

    So why they all take it?

    My quick answer is the culture tied people together, make all those people identify themself closely with China, and maybe its a reason which is much more fundermental than govermental education. As individuals, we all know we know more than we do 10 years ago, then its not suprise that a culture accumulated over 5000 interrupted years having given enormous heritage and identities on its members. To many Chinese people, the concept China is not the Chinese government, it is their cultural root and their ancestor.

    I personally believe the identity of a ethnic group should not be emphasize, and people from different ethinic group should mix and live together, because emphasizing difference do no good to the world peace, there should be more talk and understanding between people from different cultural backgrounds. For this reason I have been enjoying study many languages. But meanwhile, I acknowledge the influcence of cultural on Chinese people, as much as I acknowledge persian cultural’s influence on Iranian. Its interesting to see Iran also has similar misunderstanding and confrontation with western world, Iranian also has strong national identity (I have friend from Iran), can we learn anything from this similarity?

    Another thing I would like to point out is, when people complain about Chinese government, do they ever think of why the government have been able to tie its people for so many years? Its always that cultural tie behind the politics – PRC is the only political entity which represents the ethinic Chinese in the world.

    You are doing a good thing to build the bridget for coummunication, thank you and many others who support the communication.

  91. ————————————————————

    ————————————————————

    To all Chinese, French, and others:

    I am Taiwanese grown up in Holland, where liberal spirit is to the extreme by some standard – all drugs are free :) Thus I am Taiwanese, Chinese and Dutch. I know exactly where the problem lies in this conflict.

    1. At macro level, there is NO Tibet issue. PERIOD! Tibet is just an excuse for other current world powers to bash China. If there were no Tibet, it would have been other issues – one can always find sth. because no country in prefect in Human rights.

    2. At micro level, there is indeed a Tibet issue. But it is a very complicated issue as far as I see. Everyone here has a fault: CCP, Tibetan mobs protestors, short-sighted monks, politically acute Dalailama, wagon-jumping naive west protestors, ugly west political leaders, propagandas of both BBC, CNN, Le Monte, Spiegel and CCP’s XingHua. Everyone is grey here. Grown up, it is no black-white 50′s movies. So we must all do self-reflection.

    3. key conflict point (also to Richard): It is the every right of any citizen to protest ( of which CCP falls short) – I fully agree: everyone must have this right! However, there are 2 very delicate lines when you exercise this right: peaceful (no REVLOT) and targeted. Whenever you cross them, you become illegal and you become blind.

    Even I, normally a heavy critic of mainland’s CCP, got offended by Paris and London, because the target – CCP’s HR policy has been replaced by blindly attacking on China (in culture, history sense) and Chinese. Anti- CCP HR policy became Anti – China and Anti-Chinese. This is the point where the current boycott French can be rightfully justified, especially given China’s recent history ( 1840 -1949) , and especially given that it is the time for Olympics, which Chinese people have been preparing so whole-heartedly for 7 years!

    P.S.

    To Richard: I had 2 posts regarding “what wrong with China?” on this site(http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/20070921_whats_wrong_with_china.htm They may on the main page. ALso I strongly recommend the posts of “ecodelta” ) . I think they will answer your question. Only free this and free that… it is not as easy as you think.

    To Remy: Don’t tell me only French wine is TRUE wine. Some Spanish and Italian wines are at least at the same level, and way better than SA and Aussie’s. The only thing could be true is Champagne.

  92. Hi All

    May I ask have anyone of you been to Tibet??

    The Western media had distorted the facts of the present life of the Tibetians.

    The life of today’s Tibetians are much better than 50 years ago. If without the revolution of the CCP, there are many Tibetians still living in the dark aged slavery system.

    In the past only the Dalai lamas, lamas, monks, businessmen and landlords were considered upper class, most of the Tibetians were slaves. I would like to urge those who know nothing about Tibet, go there and see yourself. The exiles are the upper class Tibetians, they want to restore the old Tibet. If you are talking about human rights, then most of the Tibetians in Tibet will not agree the returns of Dalai lama and go back to the old slavery system.

  93. You need to learn more about the suffering of a gentle, kind people by the hand of your Chinese government. I would say if you were a Tibetan, that you would be saying just the opposite of what you are now. It was not too long ago when China suffered at the hands of aggressors. Look at your history, now that China is getting stronger on the world stage it too has become aggressive and brutal. It seems the Chinese government wants the Tibetans to become Chinese. Why not leave them to lead their own lives. If they want to continue their traditions of as you say “slavery” then let them. That is their business not yours. It is the basis of freedom. But I don’t think your country can do this. Remember this, all of the Chinese citizens that feel hurt by what the world’s opinion is of your government is due to some truth, or else there would not be such a world outcry. And the sooner you as a Chinese citizen learn this truth, the sooner you can be responsible for a dialogue that must happen between the Tibetan people and the Chinese. Or you will go down in history as a nation that destroyed other people to achieve your greatness. This will always be a country’s undoing in the long run. Just look at the history of the world to realize this, and stop being so afraid!

  94. @Joyce

    I have not been to Tibet but I am friends and work as a human rights lawyer with many Tibetans in San Francisco. Many of these people grew up in Sichuan, Gansu, and Xizang provinces and sitll have family in China.

    I would like to comment on things you stated:

    “The Western media had distorted the facts of the present life of the Tibetians.”

    True. If you rely on western media, you will have distorted idea of what is happening. But this is true of everything, not just Tibet. But can you dispute the fact that Chinese media is also a distortion of truth, no better thatn western media?

    Where do you get your source of information about Tibet? Have you been Tibet? If so, which part of Tibet? Did you go to Lhasa, or did you explore every part of the countryside. Did you go to Gansu, Sichuan as well and talk to everyone? Do you speak Tibetan? And who did you talk to? And can you be sure that the Tibetan people who you talked to you were honest about how they feel about China and Tibet? And even if the people you talked to were honest, can you be sure that they represent the feelings of all Tibetans?

    I bring these questions to you to show you how difficult it is to know the COMPLETE truth. I do not claim to know the complete truth and as K Wang pointed out, this is not a black or white issue.. From my conversations with Tibetans in San Francisco– many of whom still have family in China– they are very upset and not happy with China’s rule. Otherwise there would not have a riot recently if people are all happy-happy with the government. Otherwise, 100,000 Tibetans would not be living in India.

    Is it really difficult to understand why some Tibetans are upset against Chinese rule. Can you really dispute that a lot of harm was done in China during the cultural revolution against both Han Chinese and Tibetans. I mean even Deng Xiaoping’s son was thrown out of window and became paralyzed because of the Red Guards. During this period, all over China including in Tibet, many monasteries, temples, churches were being destroyed. This is very recent history, only about thirty years ago. Many Chinese people are still upset at what the British and French did during the Opium war more than a 100 years ago. Many Chinese people are still upset about what the Japanese people did in China more than 50 years agos. The same is true for many Tibetans regarding the Chinese communist government.

    “The life of today’s Tibetians are much better than 50 years ago. If without the revolution of the CCP, there are many Tibetians still living in the dark aged slavery system.

    In the past only the Dalai lamas, lamas, monks, businessmen and landlords were considered upper class, most of the Tibetians were slaves. I would like to urge those who know nothing about Tibet, go there and see yourself. The exiles are the upper class Tibetians, they want to restore the old Tibet.”

    You are comparing Tibet more than 70 years ago. 70 years ago China was also a backward country Countries change all the time. When India first became independent, there were also many bad practices, like buring of widows, a discriminatory system against different caste of people. Should China have invaded India? But look at India now, it is a modern democratic state with an economy that is only second to China in growth and many of the old practices have been eliminated. Also don’t forget that even after the revolution, China was still a very backward society wth many problems. Think again about the cultural revolution.

    And you talk about slavery in Tibet 70 years ago, look at China now and what happened in the recent scandal in Shanxi where were children were forced to work in a brick factory as slave labor.

    Also even among the most pro-Tibet people, I have never heard of anyone that said that Tibet should go back into the past and become a backward feudal society. It would be impossible to do that. The issue is true autonomy, not independece. Even the Dalai Lama has stated in public interviews that he wants autonomy and that Tibet needs China to help with its modernization.

    Finally, the way you describe the situation regarding Tibet and China reminds me of how the Japanese talked about China and Korea during the 1930s. They also saw themselves as this “modern” society and that Chinese, Koreans, and other Asians were these primitive backward people who needed to be civilized and “helped” so that they could be part of the modern world. Remember also that the British and French imperialist also “helped” their colonies in India, Vietnam by building modern schools, railroads, hospitals. But did that justify their colonies? No.

  95. Hi Joyce,

    Have you been to Tibet in the recent weeks? What is happening ther now, do you know?

    Please don’t repeat the same old Mantra.

  96. Hi everyone, I think I spent about one hour to read all the posts :)

    I can tell you that most of the comments are interesting not like in youtube (“chinks must die” , “french sux” etc…)

    First of all , I am French , I am living in Paris and working near the eiffel tower. My girlfriend is chinese (she is from wenzhou and very cute:p)

    For the most i’ve read , i can tell there are, as usual, good and bad things.

    Z said : “Cultural difference is such a massive topic that nobody alone can handle it. I just want to point out there are differences, and hope everyone including me shows some understanding to others. No need to agree with us, and no need to make friends with us, but only some understanding.”

    I agree with you dude , and I can tell you I have many chinese friends.

    I won’t make a long comment because it’s so boring to read comments from “simple” mind like mine :p so I just want to tell you that there are idiots everywhere , in France , in China , in US , maybe in the moon too :p

    And before hating someone like a “bai chi” we should think and take time about the right decision. It is not 70 million of french people who tried to steal the torch from the chinese girl. So please don’t think all french are like this. Actually I really don’t care about olympic games and others countries issues (maybe I am wrong , maybe I am right : it s just my way to live) For me Tibet is your problem , your gov problem , like our governement has its …

    It s funny in some comments you talk about the past, the wars … I think it s useless in this kind of subject. Because history just repeats, always wars diceases …

    And the war are often started by stupid people , because they think mainly about them before (money ?)

    Just be open minded , cool (no I m not from the 60′s)

    Here the problem is just some stupid people (french, english …) make you (chinese) act as stupid as they are .. boycott French products … a nonsens . This won’t make this stupid people change their minds …

    “errare diabolicum est sed perseverare diabolicum” unfortunatelly “this kind” of people “perseverare”

    Draft translation : Making mistakes is human but making the same mistake is evil.

    My sister is living in California and I travel a lot, I think the main problem is when people are affraid or don’t know something people act really stupid … But see i said people not country … because everyone is different (hoppefully :p)

    Don’t think because i said often “stupid” that I think am the new genious of the 21st century nono not at all. I am stupid too, but a non violent one and this is really a good point :)

    So once again and it will be my conclusion : peace my friends and for the bai chis in the world, don’t be sad you can change :p

    看到你 :)

  97. Dear Chris,

    you said ‘such a world outcry’ , it remind me sometime in the past of human history, there was a ‘such a world outcry’ which believe the earth is the center of the universe. Yes this opinion also due to some truth, because its so obvious that, the sun the moon…, travel around us.

    The world is much complex than one can think, the ‘world outcry’ maybe better changed to ‘ media represented western world out cry’ for this issue, there is a huge chinese world has different voice which has been long ignored.

    Why would the the opinion of one world is more important than the other world? Because they are richer? Because they control some powerful media? If we here do some scientific research based on the true spirit of democracy- everyone’s opinion is weighted equally – we might get very different conclusion, lets study the number of people who support the two different ideas, the Chinese world might over the opinion from the western world. I am confidence people can get this kind of demographic statistic very easily on web these days.

    Lets talk about freedom, love, tolerant, respect and real democracy

  98. Hello LoveWorld,

    As you say sound scientific research is needed. And hopefully that research will ultimately lead to true dialogue. You say, “everyone’s opinion is weighted equally.” When can that truly take place between the Chinese leadership and the Tibetan leadership, just like you and I are having a dialogue? Only when there is real dialogue, only then do I think these two great cultures can meet and progress forward.

    It is important to accept that cultural differences do matter. One culture is never better than the other, and that one culture should not force the other to change to suit an image they see of themselves. How boring the world would be if we all were the same. The people of Tibet are different from that of the people of China. They have hugely different cultures. At the same time they are all human beings, like everyone in the world, with the same hopes and fears and desires for happiness, and prosperity. These two people need to cooperate, to come together synergistically, or one will end up destroying the other — which in my view is happening right now.

    Respectfully,

    Chris

  99. @ Romantique, if you were referring to me, I was trying to illustrate, how a counter-demonstration by the Chinese is likely to be distorted by the western media,and even if they do get there point across, it will be dismissed by the west as “state-sponsored”. Unfortunately no-one has asked me what I mean. I am hoping that if I have commited some social faux part, they will be kind enough to let a foreigner know.

    @Jian Shuo and the other Chinese posters here, can I please ask: Could someone explain what education to “reunify the thinking…of the officials and the masses” means in practise? Here is the BBC article it came from. Thanks

    Sorry about the last two sentences, but in the interest of truth, I have left them in, although I don’t find the attitude of the Paris city council helpful.

    China seeks to ‘educate’ Tibetans

    Rioters overturn a car in the Tibetan capital Lhasa, March 2008

    The initiative follows rioting on the streets of Lhasa in Tibet

    China has launched an “education” campaign in Tibet it says is designed to undermine support for the Dalai Lama and any separatist sentiment.

    The Tibet Daily newspaper said the campaign was to “unify the thinking… of officials and the masses”.

    The initiative follows violent clashes last month between police and monks in Tibet, and pro-Tibetan demonstrations around the world.

    Beijing has accused the Dalai Lama of inciting unrest – claims he has denied.

    The Tibetan spiritual leader, who lives in exile in India, insists he has no political role and played no part in the protests by Tibetan Buddhist monks that erupted into rioting in the main city Lhasa.

    But he condemned the Chinese crackdown that followed, and accused Beijing of committing “cultural genocide” in Tibet.

    Tibetan sympathisers and human rights activists have since used the worldwide tour of the Olympic torch to protest against Beijing’s hosting of the Olympic Games this August.

    Security tightened

    China’s Communist Party has long used what it calls “patriotic education campaigns” to impose discipline and reinforce its authority, says the BBC’s Daniel Griffiths in Beijing.

    The Tibet Daily says the latest drive will include television programmes and a series of sessions in which the Dalai Lama will be denounced by Communist Party members, other officials and local people.

    Campaigns requiring monks in Tibetan monasteries to denounce the Dalai Lama and declare their loyalty to Beijing have also been stepped up.

    China has poured troops into Tibet and tightened its borders ahead of the passage of the Olympic flame through the territory, on its way to Mount Everest in early May.

    It accuses the Dalai Lama of wanting to divide Tibet from China and sabotage the Olympics.

    France targeted

    Protests have recently erupted in China to counter those that have accompanied the torch relay in the West.

    The incidents that were brought about by a few people on this sad day don’t reflect the feelings of my fellow countrymen for the Chinese people

    Nicolas Sarkozy

    Sarkozy tries to mend China ties

    The French supermarket company Carrefour has been targeted with an attempted boycott for allegedly supporting the Dalai Lama – though it has denied doing so.

    French President Nicolas Sarkozy apologised in a letter to a disabled Chinese athlete who was jostled as she carried the Olympic torch in Paris, in an apparent attempt to soothe ties with China.

    However, Paris city council has said it will give the Dalai Lama honorary citizenship.

    Bertrand Delanoe, the city’s Socialist mayor, said the gesture would “pay tribute to a champion of peace – a tireless advocate of dialogue between peoples”.

  100. I hope the Chinese people extend their boycott to canada as well

    any country that murders its citizens and journalists does not deserve the olympics, and I am ashamed that Chinese products are sold here

    please, i beg you….

    boycott Canada too

    and stop sending cheaply made junk over here while your at it

  101. It seems to me that in Chinese culture there are 100 different ways to avoid answering a question.

    Maybe they are not so different to westerners after all.

  102. My biggest problem with the Western media is that many issues are conveniently muddled. It applies to both sides of the propaganda but more so to the Western media outlets than to the Chinese side given the latest Tibet and Olympics chaos. There are many different issues involved and they should be debated separately. To name a few here, not in any particularly order -

    The issue of Tibet

    The issue of Dalai Lama

    The issue of Western Media

    The issue of Chinese Government

    The issue of Olympics

    The issue of Freedom & Democracy

    The issue of Human Rights

    Just because one supports freedom & democracy in China it doesn’t mean he/she must support the independence of Tibet. Just because one supports the autonomy of Tibet it doesn’t mean he/she must support Dalai Lama. Just because one supports Olympics it doesn’t mean he/she must support the communist party. And just because one supports freedom & democracy it doesn’t mean he/she must support the Western media. Similarly, just because there is free speech in the US, it doesn’t mean media outlets here are fair, unbiased, or even truthful. Just because there is no free speech in China, it doesn’t mean the government has no right to enforce the rule of law to ensure the safety of majority people.

    These are totally different issues. It seems to me many people don’t get that. THE WORLD ISN’T JUST BLACK AND WHITE.

    However, I don’t expect everyone to agree with my political views. I am just trying to point out many logic flaws in the media surrounding the recent debates. Lot of people including many professional journalists automatically make lots of bad assumptions…for instance, does freedom & democracy automatically ensure the human rights and justice for all? Not really, in my view. Let’s see – does the US have democracy? Yes, I can say for sure. Does the US have human rights and justice? Not totally if you ask many minorities in this country. The war in Iraq is another example. But let’s not go there for now. ONE THING DOESN’T GUARANTEE THE OTHER. That’s my point. Another example, I support Beijing Olympics. But does that imply I support the communist one party rule? Absolutely not. One more, does supporting Tibet’s autonomy automatically mean the support of its independence? No. Many media outlets don’t differentiate them, maybe too willfully. Some are just ignorant while others may be ill-intended. Thast is the reason that the latest China bashing has backfired so badly. Many Chinese people end up galvanizing around the communist government. And that is the least I want to see. (see this NYT report – Indignant Chinese Urge Anti-West Boycott Over Pro-Tibet Stance http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/world/asia/20china.html).

    If one intends to debate on issues, mixing and confusing them is not the way. It doesn’t help!

  103. Here is an interesting piece about China & Tibet…….

    ==================================================================

    Uncovering the Complex Truth behind Popular Myths about China and Tibet

    Author: Yipei Liu

    Issues around China and Tibet have taken centre stage in some recent political debate. While different people may hold different views have different interpretations, reduction of the complex ethno-socio-economic-political dynamic behind the development of the recent turmoil into simplistic terms like “Chinese suppression” does not do justice to reality. Popular myths often contribute to the distortion of public views. This is particularly true when it comes to issues that are distant from daily public life. The purpose of this document is to provide its readers with some much overlooked, yet well documented, “arguments from the other side” that are rarely broadcasted on the supposedly objective and impartial media in the Western world. While some reader may not be entirely convinced by the evidence and arguments provided in this document, by demonstration the mere existence of such evidence and arguments, we hope to convey the fact that the issues around Tibet – and China in general – are, at least, not as “black-and-white” as commonly assumed. At this point in time, please put the emotions aside and give China a break. After all, even if the Chinese government did not deserve a perfect Olympics, the Chinese people – who worked so hard to raise their country from its post-revolution ruins to the current state of prosperity – unarguably do.

    ‘Your will is like the gathering of clouds,

    your call like thunder;

    From these comes timely rain

    to nourish selfless the earth!’[1]

    From a Hymn by the 14th Dalai Lama to Mao Tse-tung in 1954, three years after “the Chinese invasion”

    Ancient history

    Myth 1: Tibet has never been politically subordinate to China. The relationship between the Tibetan protector, the Dalai Lama, and the Chinese ruler was a priest-patron one.

    Truth: Well documented historical records suggest otherwise:

    1 During the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368 AD), several state bureaus and offices were set up in Beijing for the purpose of administering Tibetan affairs. The most prominent ones were

    a) Zongzhi Yuan (总制院): Later renamed Xuanzhengyuan (宣政院), which dealt with Tibetan and Buddhist affairs

    b) Three subordinate offices under Zongzhi Yuan called Xuanzhengshi Si (宣慰使司), in charge of military and civil administrations of Tibetan areas

    Some might, however, argue that during the Yuan period, China and Tibet were two separate countries unified under the Mongol Empire. The collapse of the Mongol, therefore, would mark the end of the China-Tibet unity. However….

    2 When the Ming Dynasty replaced Yuan in China, the basic intuition for the handling of Tibetan affairs remained unchanged. It is, however, true that Ming’s control over Tibet was much weaker than that of Yuan.

    3 Qing, or the Manchu empire, replaced Ming in the 17th century. In the 57th year of the Qianlong period (1792), after Qing troops put down the Gurkha incursion into Tibet, a set of regulations called Regulations for Resolving Tibetan (Matters) (西藏善后章程) were promulgated. These regulations established the equal rank of the amban with the Dalai Lama and the Panchen 1ama, and his direct authority to control political military, religious, financial communications, and transport matters[2].

    Society

    Myth 2: Prior to the communist takeover, Tibet was a “society dedicated to peace and harmony” where the people “enjoyed freedom and content”[3].

    Truth: Tibet before the 1950s was a backward feudalist society where secular landlords and theocratic lamas controlled majority of, if not all, the arable land. Serfs which constituted a major part of Tibetan population prior to the communist takeover lived miserable lives and often suffered inhuman treatment from their overlords[4].

    1 The overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival

    2 As in a slave system, serfs were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike not freely depart

    3 “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owners as house servants and used as they wished”[5]

    4 The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search for work, they paid a passage tax

    5 When serfs could not pay, the monasteries lend them money at 20-50% interest. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery (apparently life could be worse than it already is!)

    6 Punishments inflicted upon thieves and runaway or resistant serfs include

    a) Eye gouging

    b) Pulling out of tongues

    c) Hamstringing

    d) Amputation

    7 Why do people put up with such life? Because of religion. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next life

    More recent history

    Myth 3: The 1959 riot was Tibetan people’s uprising against communist oppression

    Truth: the 1959 riot was a military rebellion staged by Tibetan aristocrats.

    Part of the agreement between the PRC government and the Tibetan local government at the time was to maintain the privileges of the overlords and lamas, and only to implement reforms (abolishing of serfdom, redistribution of land etc) gradually. Having observed reforms that had been carried out in parts of the outer-Tibet – part of Tibet that has not been Dalai Lama’s jurisdiction since early 18 century when Emperor Yongzheng of Qing Dynasty incorporated parts of the Tibetan Plateau into adjacent Chinese provinces such as Qinghai and Sichuan (a purely administrative move with no military atrocity) – where land, parts of it, were distributed to the serfs, the aristocracy in Tibet started to worry about the possible loss of their privileges. With the encouragement and support of the United States (many of the leaders of the gorilla fighting force were secretly trained by the CIA prior to the riot[6]), the aristocrats organized a series of riots in various parts of Tibet, started in 1956 and culminating in 1959. According to a Western commentator “Many lamas and lay members of the elite and much of the Tibetan army joined the uprising, but the main the populace did not, assuring its failure”[7]

    Myth 4: Chinese government committed genocide in Tibet. More than 1.2 million Tibetans died as a result of Chinese occupation

    Truth: Historical population statistics suggest otherwise.

    Tibetan population in 1953 were 1.274 million. The figure grew to 2.196 million in 1990[8]. If the exile government’s claim were true, the population growth without Chinese occupation would have had been 2.7%. Putting this figure into context, Tibetan population between 1953 and 1990 would have had been way higher than that of India (2.2%) – a country with more habitable environment – and of Former Soviet Russia (1.0%) – a country where 5-Child mothers are considered as heroines. It is important to note the following facts

    1 The economic and social situations in Tibet in the 50s and 60s reflect the overall condition in China as a whole.

    2 Periods of economic and social crisis were the result of well-intentioned, but poorly designed – and even-more-poorly implemented – policies

    3 Demolishing of monasteries did not occur at the beginning of the communist takeover. It occurred mainly during the cultural revolution – a period of collective madness during which cultural institutions of all kinds were destroyed by the uneducated and ill-encouraged masses, and not something even remotely close to genocide

    4 Family planning policy – more popularly, and incorrectly, known as one-child policy – does not apply as strictly to ethnic minority regions. People in these regions are encouraged to have only one child (for economic reasons), but are allowed to have two. Having more than two children, while still allowed, is generally not encouraged. This however, is due largely to economic rather than political considerations. Mao Zedong, the much hated Chinese dictator, in fact opposed the idea of family planning for his entire life. The scholar who proposed the idea, Ma Yingchu, was jailed for promoting “reactionary thoughts”.

    Myth 5: The 14th Dalai Lama is a noble saint, the practice of whom closely represents the authentic doctrine of Buddhism

    Truth: It is ironic that the image of Dalai Lama has ascended in the past 50 years from the figurehead of a corrupt and exploitive regime to something close to a saint.

    1 The 14th Dalai Lama has very strong tie with his family members – behavior that is not strongly encouraged in Buddhism since practicing Buddhists are supposed to devote their lives to the Buddhist religion and the enlightenment of the suffering masses. More importantly, the family members of Dalai Lama, one time or another, served some very important role in his government-in-exile[9].

    a) One elder brother, Gyalo Thondop, served as Chairman of the Kashag, the minister of security, and the Prime Minister of the government-in-exile. He also headed the CIA backed Tibetan contra movement in the 1960s

    b) A sister-in-law served as head of the government-in-exile’s planning council and its Department of Health

    c) A younger sister served as health and education minister and her husband served as head of the government-in-exile’s department of Information and International Relations

    d) The list goes on

    2 Dalai Lama consumes meat, which is in strong odds with Buddhist doctrine. He claims that he does so on a doctor’s advice following a liver complication from hepatitis. No scientific evidence, however, suggests that meat consumption is good for damaged liver

    3 Most importantly, The 14th Dalai Lama did little to actually improve the lives of Tibetan people. As will be explained in length in the coming section, rather than fostering mutual understanding and peace, the Dalai Lama have been contributed significantly to the destabilization of Tibetan society through spreading hatred and nationalistic ideology. Here’s a story

    There was an old man, who tells his supporters that his country was invaded by an alien force. His people were killed; culture ruined; tradition lost; and religion threatened. His supporters got angry. Some of them got so angry they started protesting around the world. A small group of the extremely argy ones decided to wage attacks on the alien “invaders”, and set their houses on fire…. This man was Sheikh Ahmed Yasin. We call him, and his angry supporters, terrorists. We condemn what they do and refute what they say. Yasin was eventually assassinated by targeted Israeli missile strike in 2004

    The same story goes for another old man. Yet we call him a holy man, and his angry believer freedom fighter…

    The Recent Turmoil

    Myth 6: The recent uprising in Tibet was the result of accumulating resentment against Chinese suppression

    Truth: Such statement grossly understates the complexity of the socio-political reality in Tibet.

    Different groups of Tibetans have very different feelings towards Han Chinese and the Chinese government

    1 Buddhist monks: Before the Communist takeover in 1950, monks / lamas constitutes the privileged class in Tibetan society, owning massive areas of land and a large number of serfs, who, as we discussed before, were treated practically like slaves. The land reform that took place in the 1950s and, more extensively, the 1960s (after the failed military rebellion in 1959) distributed much of the land that was previously owned by the monasteries to the poor serfs and peasant, causing the economic and social power of the monasteries, as well as the wealth of the monks, to shrink. Later in the 1960, during the Cultural Revolution, former peasants and serfs are encouraged to condemn their former “exploitive masters”. Under popular pressure, some were even forced to involve in productive activities – something unthinkable to the monks when Tibet was under Dalai Lama’s feudalist rule. It is therefore fair to say that the resentment among Tibetan lamas against the so-called oppressive Chinese rule has more to do with the loss of economic and political privileges than the loss of religious freedom. Religious activities are monitored closely in Tibet for the close tie between religion and politics – and in turn social stability, as is clear from the recent turmoil – rather than for the suppression of religion itself.

    2 Ordinary Tibetans: The dynamics in play among ordinary Tibetans is very different from those among Buddhist monks. In the early years of the Communist rule, most ordinary Tibetan liked and supported the Chinese government (see Celder and Celder, The Timely Rain). Even as of today, some older generation Tibetans feel grateful for the Communist government and hang Mao’s portray spontaneously in their living rooms. The resentment among ordinary Tibetans against the Han Chinese is a more recent phenomenon, and is most visible amongst the younger generation Tibetans who had no experience of the brutal lamaist rule and are dissatisfied with their economic situation, the making of which is a complex one.

    After the “Opening and Reform” in 1979, the Chinese government invested heavily in the development of Tibet. Wealthy provinces and cities – such as Guangdong, Jiangsu, Zhejiang and Shanghai – are encouraged to provide financial aid to found infrastructural projects. Given the special political sensitivity of the area – created partly by the continuous campaigning of the Dalai Lama’s government-in-exile and the deep-rooted resentment among the Tibetan monks – the central government also implemented social welfare programs in Tibet that are nowhere seen in other parts of China (Tibet is the only province-level administrative region that receive central government subsidy of over 100% local government expenditure: total subsidies between 2002 and 2007 amount to over US$12bn. Although still low compared to Western standard, Tibetans farmers and herdsmen enjoy the highest medical coverage among Chinese; and their children are eligible for free education up to senior high school level – a rarity in China after the free market economic reform – with food and accommodation provided).

    Welfare subsidies, however, do not create wealth on its own for the local Tibetans. To some extent, they in fact dampened the incentive among ordinary Tibetans to seek employment or explore new business opportunities created by economic reform and development. At the same time, business-savvy Hans (the ethnic group that constitutes over 90% of China’s population) and Huis (Chinese Muslims) – either spontaneous migrant in search for new wealth-generating opportunities which are increasingly rare in the inner heart land or descendants of the construction workers, who helped develop the basic infrastructures in Tibet – was quick to settle in to the new market place and became the wealthier class in Tibet. As have been witnessed in so many other places around the world, economically dominant ethnic minorities are rarely loved and welcomed: British in Zimbabwe, Ibos in Nigeria, Lebanese in West Africa, Jews in Russia, Croats in Yugoslavia, Chinese in Indonesia and Whites in Bolivia, to name but a few. In most, if not all, of these cases, ethnic hatred fuelled by market-created economic inequality erupted into brutal violence, which not only led to the killing and abuse of the market-dominant minorities, but also left deep chronic wound on local economic and social establishments (See Amy Chua, The World on Fire for detail). The recent Tibetan riot is little more than another example of such kind of ethnic conflict outburst. Rather than the violation of human rights, relative poverty and the dissatisfaction with minority dominance of local economy are the major causes of resentment among ordinary Tibetans. This would explain why, along side the Han Chinese, Hui (Muslim) minorities, who dominates Lhasa’s meat trade, are also targeted and attacked.

    Despite being a preacher of peace, love, and compassion, the words and deeds of the 14th Dalai Lama intensifies the hatred felt among Tibetans from both groups. The provocative terms used in his speeches and statements such as “gross violation of human rights”, “cultural genocide”, and “second class citizens” – none of which, as discussed above, is true – helped radical members of the ordinary Tibetans group to rationalise their sense of dissatisfaction beyond simple economic reasons. At the same time, his continuous campaigning around the world, which has received growing support from Western communities, has provided Tibetan monks with the illusive hope of a returning Lamaist state, and encouraged them to reject the reality of a modern world where the power of religion would inevitably subside.

    In summary, the growing resentment among Tibetans against Chinese and the Chinese government is a result of the interplay among three cross-reinforcing factors: grievances for the loss of past privileges, dissatisfaction with minority dominance of local economy, and provocative actions taken by the government-in-exile. While some may disagree with this interpretation, the simplistic reduction of the complex dynamics that is shaping today’s Tibetan society into a two-word phrase – “Chinese suppression” – would not do full justice to the entangled reality. And for supposedly knowledgeable and informed parties to subscribe to such simplification, one could not help but wonder whether it is a mere sign of ignorance or in fact something more sinister.

    Myth 7: Chinese government’s reluctance to engage in “meaningful dialogue” with the Dalai Lama is the key obstacle in reaching a constructive solution to the Tibet issue

    Since the 1970, dialogue between the Communist government and the Tibetan government-in-exile took place in a number of occasions. While the Dalai Lama has altered his tone from “full independence” to “real autonomy”, the actual demands, claims and standpoints remained largely unchanged. These include

    1 Tibet is historically and culturally an independent country, and was never a part of China before 1950 (The Chinese government suspects that this may lay the backdrop for complete independence in the future)

    2 The Chinese government must remove all military presence in Tibetan. The political status of Tibet should be submitted to an international conference for multilateral discussion.

    3 The power to conduct diplomatic affairs is to be vested in the autonomous government of Tibet

    4 The boundary between autonomous Tibet and the Chinese heartland is to be redefined. The new administrative region of Tibet – i.e. Greater Tibet – would include all Tibetan-dominated areas in China. (This effectively would remark the Tibetan border that has been in place for some 400 years. 1/5 of Xinjiang province, 2/3 of Gansu Province, 2/3 of Sichuan Province, 1/2 Yunan Province, and the entire Qinghai Province would become parts of the new Tibet, making it a state of over 2.4m square kilometres in area, covering a quarter of China’s total land span)

    5 Removal of non-Tibetan residence from Greater Tibet (As discussed above, Greater Tibet would encompass large areas of land in neighbouring provinces, all of which have had mixed ethnic presence for centuries)

    Should the Chinese government agree to all these terms – something the Tibetan government-in-exile has refused to compromise for years despite the shift in their official rhetoric – China would lose its sovereignty over not only Tibet, but also a large area of land on bordering and adjacent to the Tibetan Plateau. More worryingly, implementing item 5 on the list would not only incur massive resettlement costs, but also lead to severe ethnical conflict similar to what India and Pakistan experienced after their separation in 1947, if not reminiscent to the disastrous impasse between Israel and Palestine. No responsible government in the world would agree to such unreasonable terms. And the unwillingness of the Tibetan government-in-exile to make material compromise, therefore, is the real obstacle to making constructive progress in resolving the Tibet issue – an issue that would not have reached to its current state had the Tibetan government-in-exile been less provocative in the pursuing of its political goals.

    Myth 8: The Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile would make Tibet a better place for the Tibetans

    Truth: The following facts suggest otherwise

    1 The Dalai Lama was an ignorant ruler who overlooked the pain from which his people was suffering prior to the Communist takeover

    2 He supported a military riot organised by the aristocrats in fear of losing their exploitive rights

    3 His government-in-exile shows all signs of incompetence and dysfunction

    a) Nepotism

    b) Lack of transparency in every possible aspect

    c) Using lies and ambiguity (with regard to the true situation in Tibet) to justify its legitimacy

    And he and his government have no proven track record of proper statesmanship

    4 Rather than raising the living standard of the Tibetan people, the expressed priority of his government is to “preserve Tibetan culture and heritage” under a “democratic” framework. This is almost stereotypical ethno-nationalism in disguise – something proven to be disruptive to economic and social development (the latter are the things the Tibetans really need – which the Communist government has been trying very hard to deliver – although they do not necessarily realise, and may never realise until they actually lose them. But as history shows, rather than rational rethinking and self-reassessment, when democracy fails, people start pointing fingers and seeking scapegoats – behaviours that are not very constructive to say the least)

    Conclusion

    1 Despite all the myths and enigma around Tibetan Buddhism and the man himself, the 14th Dalai Lama – as the head of a government and an advocator of a certain political view – is above all a politician, and should be treated in the same way as any other politician. Statements like “more than a million people died” and “99% of the population is very very unhappy” would not be accepted without rigorous verification had it come from any other politician. Same standard of scrutiny should be applied to the 14th Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile

    2 The Chinese government is not evil, despite its authoritarian nature. Like many other national governments in the developing world, it is inexperienced and incompetent due largely to the country’s relative primitiveness of its social development. It is not in the Chinese government’s interest to violate human rights, and it would be naïve, if not discriminative, to think that a government would harm its people just because it is Communist. Cases of severe violation of human rights, such as torture and harassment of prisoners, occur in China due primarily to corruption at local level administration and imperfections in the institutional infrastructure for the enforcement of law. They share more similarity with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, than with Nazi Germany or Stalinist USSR

    3 China is a great country with extremely friendly people and a highly embracive culture. Since “the opening and reform” in 1979, China has not only lifted hundred millions of people out of poverty, but also contributed enormously to the global economy by providing a low cost manufacturing base. The prevalent anti-China sentiment is an unfortunate result of the continuous interplay among socio-ideological stigma against Communist states, selective bias of Western media towards negative coverage, and provocation of ignorant / ill-intentioned politicians in pursuit of public support (the famous Brad Pitt film based on a story with dubious historic accounts written by a former Nazi officer also helped). Solving China’s problems – include but not limited to the Tibet issue – requires constructive solutions based on good understanding of local reality, rather than simple-minded campaigns founded around ill-conceived judgement. Ultimately, what this world needs is cooperation fostered by dialogue; not confrontation reinforced by prejudice.

    4 Finally, China is a DEVELOPING COUNTRY with developing country’s problems. These problems are not unique to China, but are magnified and complicated by the country’s enormous size and population. While the Chinese government might be excessively cautious about stability, China is not an Orwellian Big-Brother-type state. To get a real sense of people’s life in China (or Tibet) today, there is no substitute to visiting the country and seeing for oneself. Welcome to China!

    For comments, questions and discussion, please e-mail givechinaabreak@chinesecitypros.org

    [1] Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travel in new Tibet

    [2] E. Sperling, The Tibet China conflict: History and Polemics

    [3] da1a¡ La ma quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-la: Tibetan Buddhism and the West

    [4] M. Parenti, Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth

    [5] L. Strong, Tibetan Interviews

    [6] K. Conboy and J. Morrson, The CIA’s Secrete Ware in Tibet

    [7] H. Deane, The Cold Was in Tibet

    [8] J. Banister, China’s Changing Population; Beijing Review, Population of China’s Ethnic Nationalities

    [9] M. Backman, Behind Dalai Lama’s Holy Cloak

    Recommended readings

    1 Chua, A. (2004), World On Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred And Global Instability, Arrow Books

    2 Conboy, K., and Morrison, J. (2002), The CIA’s Secret War in Tibet, University Press of Kansas

    3 Curren, Erik D. (2006), Budda’s Not Smiling: Uncovering Corruption At The Heart Of Tibetan Buddhism Today, Ayala Press

    4 Gelder, S. and Gelder, R. (1964), The Timely Rain: Travel in New Tibet, Hutchinson & Co. (Press) Ltd

    5 Goldstein, M. C. (1989), A History of Modern Tibet, 1913-1951, University of California Press

    6 Lopez, Donald S. Jr (1999), Prisoners Of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism And The West, The University of Chicago Press

    7 Parenti, M. (2007), Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, Available online at http://www.michaelparenti.org

    8 Sperling, E. (2004), The Tibet-China Conflict: History and Polemics, Policy Studies 7, East-West Centre Washington

  104. So, George, by your assessment, or at least by the author’s assessment that you used in your post, there is little hope that this crisis can be resolved because of the way that the Chinese people view the Dalai Lama and Tibetans. That to me is very sad, very sad indeed. But, I myself will continue to hope to see that one day the Chinese people and the Tibetan people will come together. The Dalai Lama is a human being, just like President Hu Jintao. And they both want happiness, not for themselves but for their people; that is you and me. And I would never stop you from attaining happiness. Why would you and your government want to stop the Tibetan people from attaining happiness in their own way? This to me is madness. I wish you well.

  105. What does re-education entail and how would you like it if it was done to you personally?

    Answer a simple question dammit.

    China may want Tibet, the Tibetans don’t want china.

    How clear can they make it?

    All the rest is evasive rhetoric, and you ain’t fooling no-one with “Oh we have a better culture than the west.”

    Looking forward to the shot-gun wedding in August. Not.

  106. To Jana,

    Do you want to know recent status about Tibet. I will show you, hope you can read Chinese.

    http://msn.myspace.cn/t/3604419.html

    The Tibetans hang the national flags on their houses. What does it mean? Help yourself. because evidence always make speaking dwarfed.

    To all supporting Tiber/Xizang independence/autonomy, whatever you call,

    Can your country endure part of its territory to be surrendered to other nations? Can you want your property deprived by others illegally (remember, there are many ethnic people living in Tibet, not just Tibetan)? The question itself is a highly hypothesized one. Do you have any right to initiate a topic about separating a country? You are to be seen as terrorist everywhere in the world if you act as a separatist. If you hope Tibetans to live even better, why don’t you make a detailed proposal or plan? Do you think you really care about Tibetans’ life? Show your commitment first. Coming to Tibet will be the unavoidable step (don’t complain this request is repeated over and over), if you really care about Tibet. Otherwise, don’t bother yourself too much and just enjoy your daily life and hamburger. Blaming others are always much easier than committing yourself to the reality.

  107. Kevin,

    You forget one important thing. China with the force of military might invaded and took over Tibet 1959. China came in and forced change onto Tibet people. And it still forces a heavy hand onto Tibetans. It is not Tibet any longer, not in the way it was before. You can argue that now is better for the average Tibetan person, but I would venture to say deep down inside each Tibetan’s heart, that they would rather to lead their own lives, and have their spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, back with them — just as you would if the situation were reversed.

    If the Tibetans were all happy about their situation in Tibet, why would they defy the mighty all powerful Chinese government, and protest? Think about it.

    all the best to you,

    Chris

  108. @Jana, this is to answer your question posted in this thread on April 22 – I almost ignored the question — about what does it mean by “unify the thinking… of officials and the masses”

    “unify thinking” is a very frequently used term by governments and the Party in China. It is considered to be the most important thing to get everyone to think exactly the same, with no other “noises”, before people do something. The whole sentence that appeared on Tibetan Daily implies that “officials and the masses” are thinking different things, which is not good. The education campaign’s goal is to “unify thinking” of everyone, and people can think completely the same – according to what the Central Party Committee want them to think. My thoughts have been unified for many times when I was a student, and now, I obviously need some education to get “re-unfied”. :-)

  109. RE: Posted by: Chris on April 23, 2008 5:39 AM

    Chris, it’s not a matter of happiness or sadness. A country, any country in fact, should have the rights to defend its sovereignty, communist system or not. The Tibet issue is very complex and should be debated separately. It’s only more confusing to debate it with other issues, such as Olympics, democracy, human rights. Every issue should be debated on its own merits, not muddled and confused with other issues. But too often, you see people conveniently mix issues with hidden agenda, which is totally wrong and ill-intended.

    My own view on Tibet is that Tibet is in her best interest to be part of China as an autonomous region. It’s like the Native Indian’s region/culture/governance model within the framework of the USA. They should have own rule of laws, religious freedom, commerce, government, and police, but not independence. Of course, I don’t expect everyone can agree with me. Much like not everyone can agree that Native Indian should be part of the US.

    Regards,

    G.

  110. George,

    You say, “My own view on Tibet is that Tibet is in her best interest to be part of China as an autonomous region. It’s like the Native Indian’s region/culture/governance model within the framework of the USA. They should have own rule of laws, religious freedom, commerce, government, and police, but not independence. Of course, I don’t expect everyone can agree with me. Much like not everyone can agree that Native Indian should be part of the US.”

    I agree with you! And the Dalai Lama would agree with you too; it is what he has been saying all along.

    Chris

  111. Chris, glad to know we don’t have disagreement on this issue. The issue of human rights is not a particular Tibet issue. So making it part of the argument for its independence is weak. Human rights is an issue for all Chinese including majority people of Han. Everyone, regardless race or ethnicity, should have equal rights.

    But you may not know that most of Americans are arguing for an independent Tibet. There are so many debates going on at the NYT forum. Frankly, I don’t even care about one’s political view but as a reasonable & intelligent person, he/she should argue with good logic, reasoning, and rationale. But many people lack the basic debating skills, in my view, including many professional journalists. Like I said in the first post, mixing, muddling, and confusing issues is not a working debate strategy.

    Let’s debate each issue on its own merits. That is my point.

  112. Chris, forgot to mention that I am a Chinese in the US. Been living and working in the states for 15 years so my view may not be the popular view on the Tibet issue. Also I don’t regard Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader. He has lowered himself to a shrewd politician to the best.

    Peace!

  113. Chris,

    I agree some Tibetans are not with the Chinese government. But how many? In my view, just a handful. The last major protest dated back to 1988 when China then had much more problems than now. Why there had been no unrest until recently just right before Olmypic torch relay? Why the riot in Lhasa was so well coordinated that the government could not expect? Is it a simply coincidence? I, as many others, doubt.

    To correct your statement, “China invaded Tibet in 1959″, which is wrong. Tibet has long been part of China hundreds years ago. Only after the demise of Qing Dynasty did the Tibet claim “independence”, when then the Chinese government was weak and plagued by many other domestic issues. Even so, no other countries in the world including the US and the UK accept Tibet’s independence on global arena. After PRC was established in 1949, two years later Dalai Lama signed the agreement with Beijing government to admit that Tibet belongs to China. In return, Daila Lama could resume his role of both religious and political superpower, which was banned in western world long long time ago. Imagine that only 5% of monks and other high ranking Tibetans enjoyed the luxurious living quality and absolute power while 95% of others must serve the high ranks as slaves. Maybe they accepted the fact that they were slaves simply because they had been always slaves. But it didn’t mean they liked it. So China as the national government had the right to change the situation there, no matter what objection it confronted largely from the monks. You just could not afford to satisfy the minors at the huge expense of the majors. The majority of Tibetans are civilians. They want peace, they want freedom as they have now. 50 years ago they didn’t have it. Now they can enjoy what they want to do, to have their religion, to have education, to have economic power. They didn’t have them 50 years ago, do you realise that? The biggest protesting voice comes from the monks, do you know why? Just because they don’t have now as much power as before. The power they owned 50 years ago is not rational from today’s view. Tibetan Buddism is quite different from other Buddism around the world, do you know that? They advocate personal power instead of harmony. Do you know that? Even within Tibet, there are several different types of Buddism, or we can distinct Tibet as front end Tibet and back end Tibet, and east of Tibet (Changdu area). Front end one refers to Lhasa and its north east, with more powerful than back end Tibet which headquarters in Rikaze the second largest Tibetan city. This is the result of religious power battling over time. Do you see any unrest happening in back end Tibet? I don’t think so. If you go inside Tibet, not Lhasa, all the traditional Tibetan cultures are well preserved, such as Ali. Lhasa is fast economically developing and it can’t represent the whole Tibet. Don’t just focus on the riot itself and Lhasa, please see Tibet more thoroughly. I travelled Tibet for several time and normally didn’t stay in Lhasa. I go into the more remote area so you can see Tibet still has its culture as it always do. Again, I agree some Tibetans are not satisfied with the government policy on Tibet. But you should look at the majority, not the monks. If you found the opponents are the major, the riot would have erupted long long time ago, followed by many others. Not the one 20 years after the one of 1988.

    Dalai Lama has been travelling around the world recently to meet the world leaders. Is it the role should a spiritual leader play? Did you hear him to talk about the war in Irag, the long Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or Northe Korea issue? He talks about cultural genocide in Tibet, but does he know the fact that the Tibetans still have very strong religious belief? Does he know the Tibetan language is still used in Tibetan daily life?

  114. Dear Gentlemen,

    This is a fascinating discussion. I can’t tell you how glad I am glad to be able to voice myself on this forum. But I wonder if in fact this dialogue can be read in China. Does the average Chinese citizen have access to our conversations? I highly doubt it. So our dialogue, regardless of distortions, misquotes, and naivete, is only being read by people in the West.

    I recently spoke with a young Chinese student studying abroad and she had very little knowledge of the “Tiananmen Massacre. But what was even more puzzling was the fact that she very little knowledge of “Rape of Nanking.”

    I myself tried to have a dialogue with other readers and posters at the China Daily (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/), but every time I posted a comment, it was never printed. The information the Chinese government wants to share is biased. No question about it. But this is nothing new. This has been going on for decades. This bias is all the average flag-waving Chinese person knows.

    One wonders if the Dalai Lama, (Nobel Peace Prize Laureate) and Spiritual Leader of Tibetans in Tibet and in exile, will truly have an open dialogue China, when China can’t be honest with it’s own people.

    Insofar as the Dalai Lama not being a Spiritual Leader, Mr. Shen, with all due respect, you can only make such a bold but ill-informed judgement because you yourself are not a Buddhist.

    many prayers of compassion to you all,

    Chris

  115. Want to know something funny? the EU has asked the Chinese government to rein in the protest against French. For years, they’re “encouraging” the Chinese government to give freedom of expression to the people. But when the government finally let the people to express their views, the EU wanted the government to stop them. Talking about double standard.

  116. Reply to Asad,

    funny to see chinese people defending this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXC5RxhZUYw

    please start to boycott all western material companies, yeah we might have to pay a bit more for goods but at least the goods won’t be tainted by blood.

    Posted by: Asad on April 22, 2008 12:11 PM

    ****************************************

    Clearly those who believe in this, are gullible fools! I have been shooting since the age of 12 years old and I am 46years of age. So I can say, I have done alot of shooting and I can shoot pretty well. A bullet from a Standard AK47 (7.62mm) travels at approx. 300ft per sec. or 700m/s in normal STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure). It is effective, perhaps up to 300m. However in the cold and freezing temperatures of the Himalayas, the bullet actually decreases in speed and trajectory because of the cold and wind. Anything above 150m I would say would be impossible to hit with a single shot or even multiple shots and that would have triggered a flurry of activities by the people being shot at, like for instance running for cover, unless you are one of those ‘Hollywood SharpShooter’ or a ‘Proper Sharpshooter’ with a properly calibrated rifle. It is clear that this video is a cut and paste and you have insulted all our intelligence by pasting this ‘Western Propoganda S**T’. On top of that with the thick winter clothings usually made from modern materials, and possibly the carrying of provisions for such a trek and journey, it is a guarantee that the bullet will not penetrate the clothings at that distance. Alternatively you can say that the soldier did a head shot, ‘WOW’ that’s is pretty good, the shooter needs to be in the Olympics representing Nepal or China, notice, I have included Nepal in this. Because the shooter’s uniform is of the type that a Nepalese troop. More over the shooter is shooting in an upright position with no support. Mmmmm. Definately Olympic material there or more. Get your facts rights and do some research before believing C**P and posting it on the web. Fool. Have you ever trekked in deep snow? Falling over is part of the experience, because if you have deep snow, it is not easy to move with all your provisions and heavy clothing.

  117. Chris,

    I don’t what you meant to tell. But you didn’t answer my questions above. Don’t use the unverified student’s account to act as you treasure to say Chinese youths are without knowledge of Tiananman Square or Nanjing (we call Nanjing not Nanking). I know much more than you, many Chinese know more than you. I doubt your words are not read by Chinese because they think your view is obviously biased, not because of the internet censorship in China. I can read your words as many Chinese in the forum, I am Chinese. Don’t take everything as granted. Don’t pretend you are an expert on China. To me, you know little about China.

  118. I haven’t any particular interest to argue but rather to just record what I think about this incident-

    When there is a political event, the question to ask is why here and why now, whose interests does it serve? The tibetans fight for existential reasons, their culture will soon be reduced to a side-show, the sole purpose of which is to demonstrate the PRC’s legitimacy. They are prepared to die for it, the BJ olympics have furnished them with the opportunity – why wouldn’t they use it. Similarly human right groups in the West when presented with an opportunity work on the principle why not? They naturally would like to see all abuses ceased immediately but circumstance does not allow this so they have to take the position that they do what they can when they can. The cn govt must have factored in protests when planning the olympics. They will lean on their experience of Tiananmen to get them through. The west will protest loudly but they want to trade with them – they will forget after the event, just as they did before. It seems that the puff has gone out of the protests already, the CN govt can ride what remains. The western govts probably wish that they the protests will go away, political capital from future games are jeopardised. France always enjoys the grand gesture. They lost the games to London this time round. In the same way, Chirac protested the toppling of Saddam Hussein because the decision had already been made by the US and France was going to lose oil contracts as a result. The Chinese people are combustible. Their structural problem is that they have no credible means of knowing what could be going on in Tibet. Their tibetan little brothers are probably suffering no worse than Han are suffering at the hands of Han elsewhere in their country. Why should the tibetans not suffer in the same way that everyone else suffers. It is safe to assume every prominent protestor if not already will soon be dead at the hands of the chinese state. But of course focusing on Chinese dealings with Tibet is rank hypocrisy by the western people, when the west is up to it elbows in Afghanistan and Iraq and with the colonial history that the west is enmired in. Chinese colonial ambitions are small in comparison. Was it not to liberate the Tibetans from Warlord-ism and Feudalism that the Chinese entered tibet in the 50s? Much appreciated modernisation in the Western view of things.

    The farcical torch relay is really just an enabler to some new stand off between East and West. The mass in Paris or outside Carrefour in Hebei are really just means to that end.

  119. @Mashup

    More arguments on this issue are time wasting,as most of the western opinions are just self-repeating internet junks.The best way to seek truth,if you are really interested and financially feasible,is to see the situation with you own eyes and talk to the people who hv real lives there(shopowners,farmers,drivers,teachers).If the road to truth is too hazard for you,then i would strongly recommend offline readings of serious stuffs in your language,especially the special report by National Geographic(April 2002″Tibetans:moving forward,holding on”).Of course,it would also cost you a little more than internet.

    Or if you stick to online,u can check Reuters report:”Tibet highway readies for Olympic spectacle,April 27 2008″(http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2008-04-27T032001Z_01_PEK337026_RTRUKOC_0_UK-CHINA-TIBET-TORCH.xml), which sheds some different light on this issue.but I presume you would likely ignore that point of view as the name of Ban Chan or place of Shikaze means nothing to you(for westerners,Tibetans=the dalai lama and Tibet=Lhasa ).

    I encourage continuous and serious interest in Tibet instead of sudden emotion in the year of Olympics.Actually truth is not so far and away,but there is just a wall before you.

    Enjoy the reading,then we talk.

  120. Chinese don’t have to put up with craps from France, Germany…….and Japan.

    These nations make money from chinese people and then humiliate them.

    China opens door to all sorts of foreign companies while france,

    germany and host of others shut their doors to China. These foreign

    companies are slaughtering chinese own companies in its infancy. For

    instance, Coke slaughtered all of China’s soft drink industries.

    Automakers are increasing its market shares…….none of these had

    happened to japan and korea after ww2. Their governments shut out all

    foreign firms in order to develope their own. Then they open the doors

    AFTER they were highly competitive. It’s mind boggling that chinese

    leaders are inviting foreigners to take advantage of the situation. It would be in chinese advantage if foreign companies are out and chinese companies take over. Foreign companies are here for “cheap” labor and made value-added money. Chinese should be the one doing this.

    Insofar as olympic is concerned, you do not trade “face saving” with

    humiliation and hostilities. It’s better to tell Angela Merkel not to

    come at all. Ditto Sarkozy. If they come, then shove them to the worst

    seats available. West likes to talk about human rights and freedom of

    speech. The world knows germany’s human rights record during ww2,

    France’s brutality and massacre in its colonies……….now these

    predators wants chinese leaders to stop chinese people’s “freedom of

    speech” by way of boycotting french and german products. Kick out

    german auto, french Carrefour and all of japs consumer products would

    do a lot of good to chinese industries.

    If Mao is in charge, this would have never happened. The so called

    leaders have minds of their own. They aren’t following the

    international protocal. When everyone nation on earth act the same way

    while Chinese leaders act differently, the world takes advantage of

    china’s unsophistication.

    You know what to do with japs. If you don’t head on with these

    nations, they will continue to breathing down your necks.

  121. The focus of medias on the paris olympic torch events product, as every focus, the same consequencies: If you near by a wall, you just see one stone of that wall! I am very glad to discover that for some of you the innumerable focus of medias all around that world are not like walls crashing on your faces!

    “Truth on this side of the mountain, lies on the opposite side”! We are differents, we are not clones! It’s a good news!

    All nations, all communities have dark and shames moments in their history; Instead of loosing time in throwing each others in the face these bad moments couldn’t we stop recommanding boycotts or other similar sanctions which lead every time to conflicts?

    My recommandation is:

    First keep smiling,

    Joke about yourself (plenty of subjects for the french i am!!)

    And have a good week-end with your friends!

  122. Paris 2008

    The French were about to start organizing the Olympics they had longed for more than 80 years. But when the sacred Torch went to Beijing, the Free Corsica movement, which had been popular in China for quite a long time, started to erupt and violent protesters, despite a massive security display , managed to take possession of the torch and used it to burn in Tiananmen Square a giant French flag covered with a swastika, while French athletes were attacked with smelly corsican cheese which caused them to stay in hospital for a few weeks. Horrified, the French governement reacted promptly and threatened to stop all Chinese imports, starting with the underwear. The conflict escalated when the Chinese stopped all exports of female underwear to France. However, the loss for consumers in France was compensated for with a surge in the tourism industry, as a new fashion, “I wear no underwear and I’m proud”, spread in the whole country and caused a large part of the world to sympathetize with the female part of the french population. In China, the lack of baguettes, croissants and Château-margaux caused some riots and the price of these goods on the black market soared. At the eve of the opening ceremony, in Paris, the tension reached its climax when rumors of a boycott by the Chinese President were not disclaimed by his spokesman. Angry Frenchmen demonstrated in front on some Chinese restaurants and even burnt some teddy bears (99% of them being made in China), but it caused them to get intoxicated. The Made in China label was booed in France, while in China, I love Corsica teeshirts and pictures of Pascal Paoli flourished. Jacky Chan and Jet Li even played in a movie (shot in corsican)villifying French exactions in Corte, and Zhang Ziyi declared her love for chestnuts, brocciu and figatellu, while dressing in a Corsica Friendly designed Damas Turchino dress for the Oscars! Then the Chinese President sent a apology letter, said he got Corsica for Croatia, and of course supported the unity of France. What could be the cause for such a stunning turn of events? Some said the love for Champagne, which had been for long anavailable because of the boycott, had been to strong, but the real cause was that, China was being submitted with millions of applications from Corsican immigrants, who threatened to weaken the already overpopulated country,and also that the “I wear no underwear” fashion, whose diplay was to be celebrated during the opening ceremony, was after quite a pleasant thing.

  123. Chinese are consistently getting this wrong, perhaps because the media in China is completely controlled on political issues and lies to its citizens day in and day out. But what Chinese are getting wrong is that the protests in France and other advanced countries were not anti-Chinese – they were against specific policies of the Beijing Government. Chinese need to take a look at why advanced countries (the people of) are so upset with China. You are right – boycotts just do turn people into anti-French or anti-China zealots when the boycotts target a whole people.

  124. Well, that was long, reading everything down. And really interesting. Quite a few people made relevant points: Chris, George W. Shen, James Brown and Jay. I’d like to share my views on this topic.

    It was very interesting for me to see one day all my MSN contacts show the “(L) China…” name. As a French who’s lived in China for a few years, many of my colleagues have asked me why the French are so bad and so against the Chinese. Like Jay said, French are not against the Chinese, but against some of the policies the CN Government has/implements. Of course, we should know better than to judge another country but… We always protest, about anything. Even internally.

    And we know our media are biased. Don’t think we always believe everything they say. There have been many reports pro-Chinese actually but seems the spotlight was only on the anti-Chinese ones.

    Kevin Woo and others:

    Please understand that the French who protested at the Torch Relay in Paris do not represent the majority of French people and their opinions on that matter. Most of them actually didn’t care about the Torch Relay.

    Jian Wan Shuo and Tommy:

    The Paris Mayor and the French Government are not one same thing. Unlike in China, the mayor of a city does not have to be of the same political party as the government therefore he sometimes does as he pleases, which is what happened. The Paris Mayor decided against the French Government advice to hang that banner and make the Dalai Lama and a chinese dissident citizens of the city. This decision was personal and political, a way for the mayor to get back at the President. It doesn’t mean the French Government and the whole French people agree or support this decision. Again, most people probably didn’t care. However, not knowing the French political scene, I see why you believed so.

    I have trouble explaining to my colleagues the above points as well as the fact that although many people protested as a group during the Torch Relay, several had different agendas. The Olympic Torch is but a means to protest against many of the P.R.C’s involvements around the world people are not happy about that, i.e. Chinese goods flooding the markets, Tibet, Taiwan, Sudan, Chinese presence and influence in Africa… The Olympic Games are basically just a platform that people use to gain impact on the issues they defend. And note that none of these are anti-Chinese but just the Government. Unlike Chinese, we don’t have that strong an attachment to the Government. We are proud of our country but the country, the government and the people are not amalgamated.

    Regading the boycotts, well… I was told several times by my colleagues they would boycott the evil French brands. They still have the *heart China in front of their IM name and they still shop at Carrefour, Auchan or purchase French products. I believe everybody is pulled into this patriotism/nationalism thing and acts accordingly. I understand why, I only regret that none of them thinks on their own and reflects on the decisions and actions they take instead of simply doing it because media/BBS and friends discussions told them it is the thing to do.

  125. Where’s the logic? Anyone home? Hello?

    Boycotting the French govnment by not shopping in Carrefours in China doesn’t do anything but harms hundreds of Chinese Carrefour workers and and thousands of Chinese product suppliers in China.

    Look at it this way: assume in Denmark, for example, some would want to boycott China by not going to Chinese restaurants in Denmark. If that would continue for long, the people in Denmark would end up paying some of the unemployment of the restaurant people there, while it would’t have any impact to China.

    Instead, what would work is this: Just don’t travel to the country you want to boycott. That would do two things: 1) it would send a message and 2) it would do much less harm in your own country.

  126. Thanks for all who stay away from Carrefours. Now it’s so good to shop there because they are not that jam packed of people as they used to be. Almost no queuing. Anyone who likes quick, hassle-free shopping without packs of people there – go to Carrefour right now :-)

  127. STOP!

    If the French want to boycott the Olympics, and for that reason we do not like the French, let them stay home! It’s a win-win situation – don’t you see!

  128. Hey, I have a little comment, its not 100% connected to this but in terms of the people of China seeing the Olympics as a wedding, or a private China wide party, I don’t get that, and I think maybe some people in the west, including the French also don’t understand. To me the Olympics is no big deal, pretty much uninteresting and often just an excuse for a country to show off some new stadiums and fireworks, I am not talking specifically about this Olympics, but all Olympics. I just don’t get it. If I watch the Basketball in the Olympics or Football, the level of competition is nowhere near as good as in the US or Europe respectively. I feel that the baseball players are far less skilled then in Major League Baseball and in terms of track and field, or gymnaustics, I’m just not interested. So I think that in the west or at least in America, there is often the feeling that these games are not that interesting, compared with the diehard following that you see around the NFL, MLB or Premeir League. So Often westerners just don’t really understand an entire country going gaga over the Olympics. Thats just my personal opinion on the issue being a American living in Shanghai watching the events around me with interest.

    j8ment

  129. Wonton wrote:

    “@Remy : Your country is no more perfect than ours so you can stop the hot air. Where was your people’s evolved humanity when you helped the Nazis kill Jews ? The pitiful smattering of resistence is still a joke to your saviours. Your treatment of Algerians is nothing to be proud of. And thanks too for nuking the pacific and blowing up the Rainbow Warrior. You go deal with your history and we will deal with ours. France is no bastion of democracy just because it gives out silly statues with torches.”

    Wonton, I had relatives that were in the resistance. Don’t you dare insult their memory, you filth. Being Chinese yourself, please explain to me what China has to done to be proud of regarding the second world war? Our saviors? We worked with our “saviors” for our freedom, regardless of any anti-french tripe you have read. The “saviors” who consider our resistance a joke are anti-french scumbags that wish to insult France any chance they get. France is not perfect by any means, but it sure as hell has been more of a democracy than China has ever been. For the record, before all this, I actually liked China very much, but reading these comments, it mad me realize how many of the Chinese people hate us. For everyone here complaining about the French hating the Chinese, what do you all have to say about the Chinese running around with Swatikas on the French flag, shouting how Joan of Arc is a whore, or a crowd yelling, “Kill the Frenchman”. (which by the way a mistake. The target wasn’t even French, but and American, but I guess to the Chinese all us westerners look alike anyway.) Those weren’t protests, those were personal insults! If you want to boycott French products go ahead. I will be doing my best to boycott Chinese products from this point on, as difficult as it may be. The sad part is that these protests against China are really for the benefit for the Chinese people, but it seems that the Chinese people can’t see that. Or don’t want to.

  130. @Marshall:

    Your country is no more perfect than ours so you can stop the hot air. Where was your people’s evolved humanity when you helped the Nazis kill Jews ? The pitiful smattering of resistence is still a joke to your saviours. Your treatment of Algerians is nothing to be proud of. And thanks too for nuking the pacific and blowing up the Rainbow Warrior. You go deal with YOUR history and we will deal with OURS. France is no bastion of democracy just because it gives out silly statues with torches.

    “these protests against China are really for the benefit for the Chinese people”

    Wow ! I’m impressed ! so the chinese REALLY SHOULD be grateful for your insults.

    Just for the record, I don’t run around with a swastika on a french flag or agree with killing the french. Joan of Arc is not a whore. Just a Schizophrenic.

    I don’t even blame you for thinking us as flith. Maybe it’s just your lack of education.

  131. @Marshall:

    However you feel, I hope your country do well and win lots of medals.

    This topic is passe for now. I just want to watch the games.

  132. Im glad China can now see what i have been seeing

    it has been upsetting to me and it makes me so angry

    i like in England and people here are given only one side to the story of Tibet

    the media poison there minds against China

    I am of British ethnics and am not Chinese however I am very pro-China and its very unlikely that will ever change

    China is doing a lot to develop the Tibet region

    One example of what China is doing to help is education

    Tibetan education is poor – so ethnic Tibetans, along with other minorities, are allowed into university with lower scores than ethnic Han Chinese to boost their chances. If they were not apart of China there education would be pretty much nonexistent

    Also with all views on Tibet being independent aside if Tibet was an independent country what do you think would happen?

    There economy would be so low the country would be very poor I’m not sure where a lot of there food would come from because how would they import? They would have to reply on aid from other countries.

    The media here makes out that China does not know what is going on in Tibet but they are wrong in fact China know both sides to the story unlike the west

    Anyway don’t worry too much about things like this, there are other non-Chinese people like me who are on you’re side and will fight any ant Chinese comments

    The only reason MOST anti Chinese comments exist is because they dont understand the situation

  133. Wonton, why did you copy and paste the first part of a previous message in your response? I have already wrote a response addressing what you have had previously written about the resistance. And I was NOT calling the Chinese people filth, that was a response to you personally, due mainly to the fact that you were trivializing the suffering of the average French citizen in World War II and calling us cowards, although I now admit I wrote it in anger. Also, I have nothing to do with the prostestors, so regardless of how you feel about me personally, that should have no bearing on them. For the record, these protestors are not against the Chinese people, they are protesting the government, both for its treatment of Tibet and the injustices it bestowed on its own people. To make it short, I like the Chinese people and culture very much, I just don’t like what is going on there now regarding the anti-French protests and to be honest, I really don’t care much for you.

    Regardless, I am willing to put my politcal views aside for the moment, and still wish the Chinese athletes the best of luck during the course of the games.

  134. @Marshall :

    Frankly I don’t feel for you at all and totally unconcerned about what you think of me.

    The post was not directed at you.

    I have written enough about this issue.

    Neither of our countries had a flawless record.

    Regarding your fellow countrymen’s protest for the people of China,

    Thanks but no thanks. We can deal with it ourselves.

    The pot calling the kettle black ? you bet.

    Picking on olympic runners showed poor judgement. As bad as shouting “kill the frenchman” to an American or picketting outside Carrefour.

    Don’t lump everyone of us with the party simply because we share the same flag.

    There are just too many issues for you to understand.

    My point is simply this :

    You go deal with YOUR history and we will deal with OURS.

    The last I heard, the commandos who blew up the Rainbow Warrior in New Zealand are still running free and the Pacific Islands are still radioactive. When was the last time you spoke for those who suffered injustice inflicted by YOUR government ??

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