Friends Started to Boycott French Products

Two points:
1) I think France is always the maverick in the west. Remember France is one of the first countries which established diplomatic relation with P.R.China, their president was Charles_de_Gaulle at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle#Recognition_of_the_People.27s_Republic_of_China

In recent years France (along with Germany) is very outspoken against the Iraq war. So I would think it's just their (some what naive) indepedent spirits got them into the Paris torch relay mess. Unfortunately they are not the wrong side of the matter this time.

2) Trade and Boycott. I also thought about the boycott immediately after reading the Paris torch incident news. But after more careful consideration, I think boycott is mostly a symbolic gesture, not a viable solution. Chinese have said boycotting Japanese products for 10-20 years, but I saw the Japanese cars (Toyota, Honda) are ever more popular in China. This is because most consumers and business are very rational in terms of "get the most bang from the buck", or "get their money worth" when they buy stuff.

That being said, I think western political leaders and foreign consumer brands should walk a very fine line here: they really should not piss off the Chinese people and consumers. The market is too important to ignore.

Posted by: STLPlace (external link) on April 12, 2008 12:42 AM

I think that there has to be a distinction between the people and the government of a country. I don't think those French, British, and American protesters especially hate Chinese people or China, they just don't like its government and its policies. However, since China is very much a part of the "face culture", anything against China is taken very personally. As you said, the Olympic Games are like China's "wedding". In the West, we usually don't taken attacks on our country so personally. In fact, I don't think we really care a whole lot about the Olympics either. I really, really worry that these boycotts will continue and things will spiral out of control. Extreme nationalism is not good for anyone.

Posted by: George on April 12, 2008 12:52 AM

As you just mentioned in your post, it's impossible to generalize and say that French are bad and that you should boycott their products!
And of course, what will happen when you have bigger boycotts not only in France but in the European Union, I think that is a totally immature way to react.

I think some people who are protibet could be violent because they are desperate imagine all what they have lost, families who are apart, people whose religion is attacked and diminished their traditions and languages are only ok to express in some places where chinese govt agrees and of course the big problem of being educated in a different way and lost ancient traditions trasmitted by education in the tibetan system.

People dont choose what their govt do neither the hsitory of their ancestors, because many of the people who are tibetans now, they dont even think its a problem to speak mandarin, because they have always being like that, since they were born some few years ago.

Try to think what would you feel if japanese, korean, american or even latinamericans came to your country and changed your old ways taught you anothr language, expressed against your beliefs, even letting you do your stuff but only sometimes in some areas or moments....
when they could think its even ok to be proud of having that culture, but only a little, not as a bigger thing that han culture.

I dont agree with violence, but i know also that chinese could be very violent as it has been before in tian'anmen and other big problems and protests, even when the world knows little about them. People in Xinjiang and people in Yunnan and Guangzhou are against some of the control of PRC and they have even went to jail because of expressing their oposition... How can Chinese now complain about other countries being violent? If Chinese are violent against themselves?

Its difficult to take parts... But definitively its not ok to do whatever is apart from debating talking and promoting peace and reasonable agreements first...

Lets see what happens with the olympics and pls think twice about starting childish measures like boycott or things like that... You think you are being a nationalist, but you can collapse your economy if many big importers of yours become against china now...

And i think you can lose more face in this process because you are in the media eye and whatever reaction will be taken out of context and could be very bad... Its your oportunity to show you can lead the world in a better way than US. Hope you can do it because we (the world) need that change, but its important to be responsible about your reactions in order to achieve it... And become a bigger and more respected power in the world.

Posted by: Claudia Frias on April 12, 2008 12:57 AM

It's not just Paris. Yesterday an American college professor sent two links about the history of Tibet and the riots in Tibet to a Chinese student organization. The Students for a Free Tibet were outraged that a professors dared to show the other side, sent outraged emails to the college president and other faculty, while the students from China have been sending emails of support saying that for years they have felt oppressed by the one sided proTibet Independence antiChina stories all over the US. Very few Americans know anything about Tibet and China, only the stories from the Tibetans living in India and Nepal.

I think the outrage comes from an idealized view of Tibet before 1950, a desire of some people to champion the "poor defenseless innocent pure harmless etc." victims and feel very good about themselves as a result. So when it turns out that some of those "victims" are murderers and the past is not so idealized, the supporters feel threatened, as if their own morality was being questioned. At least that's what's happening in some colleges in the US.

The good part is that the student from China are beginning to see that not everyone in the US thinks China is evil toward Tibet, and that they can speak out. So perhaps the videos and reports of the riots will have a good result, although at a terrible cost.

Posted by: zjemi on April 12, 2008 12:59 AM

And P.S. don't hate the French, but know that most of them are misinformed about China and Tibet just as Americans are. As for boycotting, that could be a very interesting development. That's aimed at the French government, not the French people, I think.

Posted by: zjemi on April 12, 2008 1:02 AM

Let me see:

1 Our government has the right to cover the truth. But you can argue, go on. But be stable.

2 I feel no superiority over the majority who don't have Youtube, CNN, or BBC access. They are holding a wedding on 2008.08.08, on a reasonable basis.

3 I'm willing to join a protest to break GFW, but as long as they leave my business alone, i won't bother to be more "active". Trust me, China is improving already. They WILL know more, and they SHOULD still love their country.

Is that what you are trying to convey, Mr. Wang? Thanks.

p.s. There are 1.3 billion of us, not 13 billion. And to tell you the truth, despite all the media heat, i still prefer to watch a pirated US film during that contesting month, say, Cloverfield, which sucks.

Posted by: mac on April 12, 2008 1:45 AM

You have to understand who is the instigator behind this.

www.tibetnetwork.org/torch_paris

Posted by: stephen on April 12, 2008 1:53 AM

Don't forget France deployed over 3000 police to protect the torch relay in Paris, without the police present, the torch already ended up at the bottom of the river Seine.

Posted by: stephen on April 12, 2008 2:41 AM

Hello JS,
Childish as it may be, it's still the most efficient way to show your disapproval. I am nothing but a speck in the eyes of the French so my boycott of their goods is about the smallest way for me to show my displeasure. It's definately much more civilised than screaming an rioting on the streets. And I don't intend to throw paint at their embassy. It's all rather simple really, If they want to do business with me, the least I expect is that they show some respect and civility.

Posted by: wonton on April 12, 2008 3:57 AM

OH i forgot you mentioned "French Products Boycott" here, well , i don't use any French products in my memory. Does going to the 家乐福 supermarket counts? Then it's out of the question, i guess.

And do you want to know my opinion on "Boycott"? One of my friends usually speaks loud of that, and the funny thing is that he has a Walkman, which is later replaced by a Panasonic CD Player, and he can't miss one episode of his favorite manga shows.

So, tell me, how am i going to trust him?

Posted by: mac on April 12, 2008 4:06 AM

Interesting...I wonder if you are being c*nsored a little bit today, Jian Shuo. I can only see a portion of this post (it stops in the middle of a sentence) and although I can tell that you have had some previous comments, I cannot see any of them.

Anyway, what I was going to say is that it makes me very sad to think that the Olympic games are being so tarnished by political upheaval. To me it seems as though this wonderful world-warming event should be all about (and *only* about) the athletes, regardless of in what country it is being held, and what other countries may think of that country's political policies/problems. I know that there have been problems of one sort or another like this for many years now. but I keep hoping that the harmonious thinkers of the world will eventually win out over the antagonists.

Very too bad for all concerned :-(

I'm sorry if this comment does not fit with the rest of your post or has already been expressed by other commenters.

Posted by: Carroll on April 12, 2008 5:25 AM

As a Chinese who studied in the UK in 2002 and is working in the US now, and have been reading much more western media than Chinese ones. I think I will be less emotional than average Chinese to say boycott to something foreign. I ever travelled Paris before and loved the city as well. But the love has gone already, and I have admitted the firm decision is made already in my mind. For the rest of my life I will not touch anything about France which is no longer friendly to me. The French was just not willing to protect a week disabled lady who was so determined to protect the torch. You see? I meant the power of the rich city and the disabled. The rich is so weak compared with our disabled lady of so powerful strength! You can imagine how an average Chinese will react, especially after the Argentina torch relay was run so smoothly. It is not that the protesters in Paris were too strong, it is the incompetence of Paris in terms of thinking naturally.

P.S. Someone will say there had been little impact on Japanese goods sale in China even when the Chinese launched a big boycott to Japan in 2005. But it is irrelevant to Paris chaos. We have been boycotting Japanese goods for the history they'd done for Chinese people. Many young people boycott without full knowledge of the history so many of them don't engage in the boycott too much. But this time, we witness the history which pass us a so direct and strong feeling lasting through our lifetime. That's the difference.

Posted by: Kevin on April 12, 2008 10:46 AM

I am staying in Singapore but have been closing observing the series of incidents for past months.

Of course, China does have their poor records of Human rights . Being a gaint country with growing power, everyone hopes .My opinion is that the words" Human Rights" is a universal , widely spanned quote where it can be the most inconvenient way to "punish" or "deter" any countries, progresses and cooperation. I hate to say but double standard always applied when we talk about " Human Rights" as observed ....

I am concerned that the implications of all these "pure profit driven" media news and mass protests against China will nove beyond the Beijing Olympic Game. The future of China and other countries will fall into the current x and y generations; and with the recent incident, the x and y generations in China may instill the ideas that most western countries are against the Chinese in progressing. I can sense these sentiment whenever I visit China or talk to any chinese friends. Some given claimed that it is a wakeup for all Chinese to get united.....I hope this perception will not last and will erase cos I believe that the majority pf the people in the world will hope to see peaceful and engaging relationship in moving forward. By engaging this Giant with 1.4 billion population with more approriate way,it will be beneficial to the World.

PS: Boycotting is a foolish way as China is a major exporting country and it serve no beneficial propose to the World when the "musical chair" starts.

Posted by: Leon on April 12, 2008 12:15 PM

Reposting -I am staying in Singapore but have been closing observing the series of incidents for past months.

Of course, China does have their poor records of Human rights . Being a gaint country with growing power, it is getting more "zealous" .........attention and .My opinion is that the words" Human Rights" is a universal , widely spanned quote where it can be the most CONVENIENT way to "punish" or "deter" any countries, progresses and cooperation. I hate to say but double standard always applied when we talk about " Human Rights" as observed ....

I am concerned that the implications of all these "pure profit driven" media news and mass protests against China will have beyond the Beijing Olympic Game. The future of China and other countries will fall into the current x and y generations; and with the recent incident, the x and y generations in China may instill the ideas that most western countries are against the Chinese in progressing. I can sense these sentiment whenever I visit China or talk to any chinese friends. Some given claimed that it is a wakeup for all Chinese to get united.....I hope this perception will not last and will erase cos I believe that the majority pf the people in the world will hope to see peaceful and engaging relationship in moving forward. By engaging this Giant with 1.4 billion population with more approriate way,it will be beneficial to the World.

PS: Boycotting is a foolish way as China is a major exporting country and it serve no beneficial propose to the World when the "musical chair" starts.

Posted by: leon on April 12, 2008 12:19 PM

Ha.

If your boycott of French products is as effective as your boycott of Japanese products, I'd say the French have nothing to worry about.

Again - your government WANTED the world spotlight and then discovered to their dismay that they can't control it. The world isn't anti-China. Every country and every government in the world is criticized for something. Get over it.

A small group of people disturb your precious torch run and you automatically blame the whole country for it?

If you really want to express your outrage to someone who has REALLY hurt the Chinese people, pull out some of your currency and look at the Great Leader. Last I checked, the French hadn't killed 50 million Chinese. Learn your own history.....

Posted by: Brian on April 12, 2008 12:22 PM

你好 Jianshuowang,

I'd heard about this too. I'd just like to say-- the vast majority of French people I know admire China and are appalled at what a small, vocal minority of foolish French protesters did when they attacked that brave Chinese torchbearer in the wheelchair. The same with Germany-- despite the foolishness and incompetence of their Prime Minister Angela Merkel, most Germans are more favorable to China and like the Chinese people. The same with British who are disgusted with the attacks on the torch ceremony in London. The same with us Americans, who don't agree with the protesters in San Francisco and support you.

I can understand why many Chinese are feeling resentment right now, you have every right to, considering the misbehavior and arrogance of so many protesters in the USA and Europe.

But most of us in these countries who have jobs, families, who work for a living, have a more respectful view of China, and we don't agree with the protesters.

In other words-- please don't look at the violent protesters in France, the USA, Germany and elsewhere, and consider them representative of our views as a whole. They don't represent us and we don't agree with them.

All I'm hoping for, is that we all calm down a little bit, since these product boycotts just wind up hurting everybody, needlessly. Most Chinese and Westerners get along. Most Americans and Europeans have a more positive attitude toward China. Let's just cool down and step back from the antagonism.

Most of these protesters are the types of people who protest everything, all the time. They can't even locate Tibet on a map. We dislike them almost as much as you do. When next week arrives, they'll be protesting something else. Then we should all move toward more trade, interaction and respect. A cool-down period would be great for everyone.

Posted by: Wayfarer on April 12, 2008 12:43 PM

And Brian, you should take your own advice and learn some history yourself. The French in fact, did kill a large number of Chinese when the French participated in the Opium Wars and other anti-Chinese imperialism in the 19th century. The French weren't quite as bad as the British, but they both collaborated in burning down many ancient Chinese cultural landmarks in the mid-1800s.

If we're going to avoid a needless conflict here that would be damaging to the entire world, we need to step back from the brink And we need far fewer people spouting off stupidity like yourself, Brian. This is not a black-and-white issue with good guys and bad guys, it's a complicated one with many facets. Just chill out a bit, okay? Let's keep cool and work together.

Posted by: Wayfarer on April 12, 2008 12:48 PM

And on the other side, to wonton and Kevin here-- again, I sympathize with your feelings here (I have another, longer post on general public relations issues for China that is in the moderation cue for the previous Tibet thread). I'm just saying that these boycotts and trade wars, hostilities in general, are mutually damaging to all sides.

Again, most French respect you and don't agree with the wheelchair attackers-- and in fact, French police stopped those attackers.

Likewise, even most Japanese I know have a lot of respect for the Chinese.

The Japanese invasion in the 1930's against China was horrible, but China and Japan have a much longer history that goes on for many centuries before that.

And throughout most of that history, China and Japan have had a relationship of mutual respect. Japan's very writing system and language bear China's impact in every corner, and most Japanese I know consider China to be a fellow brother-in-arms, an advanced Asian nation that can cut through all the old stereotypes and demonstrate that the potential for East Asians as world leaders in science, technology, business, culture and even human rights, as China continues to improve.

Let's all cool down a little and recognize that.

Most individual Chinese, Japanese, French, Americans, British, Germans and Italians, we get along fine with each other and have good relations.

We have a lot more to gain by working with each other and pushing each other's hot buttons. The last thing the world needs, these days, is still more needless, stupid, unnecessary conflict. Don't let those idiot protesters in Paris, London and San Francisco make you think this is Western opinion. It isn't. Most of us just want to be your good neighbors and partners!

Posted by: Wayfarer on April 12, 2008 12:59 PM

BTW, I think Jianshuowang says it best here-- boycotts just hurt both sides and are an immature, poorly-focused, foolish way to express an opinion.

Don't pay attention to a few arrogant protesters who have too much spare time on their hands to protest anything and everything-- already, today, the French are busy protesting something else! Look at the vast majority of moderate people.

BTW, the torch in Buenos Aires, Argentina today had no trouble. Seems that in Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking South America, there's less of an issue and more courtesy on the streets of the cities to guests. As others have written, China would gain a lot to vary your major trade contacts and also the languages you study in school, not just English. (The USA and Britain, unfortunately, are the home of many of the worst loudmouthed protesters, though not the majority of people.)

I've found this as well-- South Americans, Spaniards and Italians are remarkably hospitable people to outsiders. Much like the Chinese, for that matter.

Posted by: Wayfarer on April 12, 2008 1:13 PM

I agree with Wayfarer -- imagine if the games were being held in the US this year how many protests there would be around the world. Such demonstrations, however, very rarely represent the feelings of the majority of people in a country toward the everyday people of another country. I happened to travel in France during a time when relations between our two countries, politically, were quite strained. Although apprehensive as to how I might be treated, without exception the French people I met were cordial and helpful, and we both expressed and readily accepted each other's feelings of embarrassment and distress about how the politicians in our countries were dealing with their differences. I hope that were you to travel in France today, Jian Shuo, you would not be viewed as "representing China", but would be welcomed as just being yourself. Of course it is different for official delegations, dignitaries, etc., and there are antagonistic and narrow-minded people all over the world as well. But in my experience, the vast majority of people are just, well, *people* -- people with families and friends who are trying to do the best they can to raise their children, work hard and have a successful and meaningful life. Except for a very few, no one really *wants* to go to war, or to hate other people for no good reason. Please do not lose your high regard for your fellow citizens of the world because of the actions of a few!

PS: It is several hours later now, and I can see the whole post and all the comments :-)

Posted by: Carroll on April 12, 2008 1:28 PM

Americans think saving face is immature. Adults learn from their mistakes, only children are embarrassed (and grown-up children).

Posted by: Micah Sittig (external link) on April 12, 2008 4:20 PM

@wayfarer : I would like to agree with you that most french of germans do not hold very strong views against China. It would make me very sad if it were true. But the silence of the so called "majority" in allowing their friend to be ridiculed and insulted is really too much. As I had written earlier, the staging of the games is not just for China alone. This country fought hard for the games to entertain our friends. I feel like we are being slapped with a second opium war. God knows we are still recovering from the hurt and humiliation of the last one.
I know that my boycott probabily won't make a dent on whatever. I am no even a supporter of the games in China the first place. But it's just a little thing I feel I must do. For myself and my country. I do appreciate your post, but just know that a great many of us are hurt, and for people like Brian, well done. We all just have to live with the consequences.
China's foreign policies has been fairly consistent in that she has never interferred with the internal politics of other countries. Tibet is a problem we must solve ourselves and not through some screaming protest grouppie.
I agree that no country is perfect, least of all China.
But not country should be treated with this kind of disrespect. Having less Chanel no. 5 sold in China is the least of our problems.

Posted by: wonton on April 12, 2008 6:39 PM

the boycott of the French products is so stupide! How long will it last before the Chinese will eat French baguette or croissants, buy Vuiton bags and L'Oréal products, etc......?

In France we have the right to express our opinion and to protest agaisnt the gouvernements' policies in the streets. This is a RIGHT and NOBODY must limit and forbidd any French in France this right to protest.

Henri, a Frenchman proud to be French.

VIVE LA FRANCE !

Posted by: Louis XIV on April 12, 2008 8:36 PM

pffft !!

The best croissants I've tasted (and I've stayed in France) are made by non- French. LV bags are overpriced and frankly darn ugly. And the best facial cleansers are by Himalaya Herbals. So there.

Posted by: mei on April 12, 2008 9:18 PM

赞成抵制法国产品

这次巴黎、伦敦的骚扰，表面看是政治抗议，其实深处是西方人的一种混合了对中国的恐惧、种族主义歧视和偏执己见的大杂烩，一种很阴暗的心理。

西方媒体起了煽动的作用，最恶心的是，这次西方媒体完全脱下了裤子，不惜捏造，而且在明显的事实面前拒绝承认，完全听从自己阴暗心理和情绪的指引，丧失了基本的底线

抵制是西方人能听懂的国际政治语言，虽然无法改变他们的内在，至少能发出一个明确的信号

理性抵制法国产品，多向周围的人宣传

Posted by: vive la frog on April 12, 2008 9:57 PM

i agree to boycott french products

the so-called "political" protest in paris and london is in fact a sentiment mixed with fear of china, racism and self-absorb

west media fan up this anti-china sentiment by making lies, they refuse to admit fact that there is no "bloddy crackdown" but only very restrained action to control mobs in lahsa. west media don't mind lying again and again, because they just want to vent their anti-china sentiment and mislead west people

boycott french products will not change them but at least let them know chinese are angrey

VIVE la FROG!

Posted by: vive la frog on April 12, 2008 10:17 PM

Stephen, you wrote: Don't forget France deployed over 3000 police to protect the torch relay in Paris, without the police present, the torch already ended up at the bottom of the river Seine.

Knowing that there will be many pro-tibet protestors and the situation could get worse than London, Paris city hall still hang out a flag saying 'Paris support human rights all over the world' on the day of olympic torch day.

I see this as the Paris goverment encouraging people to protesting Olympic torch. With that attitude in mind, I wonder whether those 3000 police would have done their best during the torch.

The French government has chosen their side.

Now we show them ours.

Posted by: Tommy on April 13, 2008 12:05 AM

few Couple of questions for Jianshuo or other readers in China
1) why is the anger against the French especially strong, compared to other nations that also had similiar protests. (i.e. Great Britan and U.S.). From what I saw and read, the protests were fairly similar. Although San Fran had the benefit of learning from London and Paris, and perhaps things were a little better controlled.

2) Doesn't Carrefour sell many Chinese made products?

3) Could you or other Chinese readers explain why the Chinese people generally take criticism/ protest against the Chinese government/ the communist party, so personally. Are the average Chinese that identified with the Governemnt or the party? Or do they truly feel the protests/criticism are actually against the individual Chinese people?

Anyways, thanks for sharing.

Posted by: Confused on April 13, 2008 12:13 AM

To Henri, Louis XIV or whoever you are:

Trust me, most Chinese people can live without baguette, croissants, Vuiton bags and L'Oréal.

Nobody has tried to take away your right to protest on the street in your country. You can protest whatever you want. And of course, Chinese people can choose to purchase or not purchase whatever they want. That's just the way it is.

See, 'proud', there is your problem. You are just so proud of staying at the side of the 'good ones', knowing the absolute 'truth' with, of course, your 'freedom of speech' and 'human rights' in your hands.

I am quite sure the 'proud' you mentioned here make you think you are more superior than the Chinese.

I am sorry, maybe your brain is too small to see it, you are nothing but a narrow-minded frenchman who has a 'black-white' view of the world.

Posted by: Tommy on April 13, 2008 12:24 AM

Regarding Wayfarer's comment "BTW, the torch in Buenos Aires, Argentina today had no trouble".

The excerpt below from AFP reveals the probable reasons why the protesters are more muted; the various organisers are just trying to salvage their "non violent' image.

Excerpt:
John Ackerly, president of the International Campaign for Tibet, told a panel discussion organised by Amnesty International that "There is a certainly a danger if people jump in front of it and try to grab the torch, but such actions could sway public opinion against us..."

Lucie Morillon, of press watchdog Reporters Without Borders, said a repeat of the scenes in London and Paris could hand China a propaganda victory.

"We want demonstrators to show restraint," Morillon said. "Violence against the torch could backfire and give ammunition for Chinese propaganda.

"When you see such incidents as in London and Paris...trying to take a torch from a woman in a wheelchair is giving a bad image to people demonstrating for human rights in China."

Soooo, these guys will not apologise for bullying a woman in a wheelchair, but are more concerned that their image will be tarnished. I am really convinced that they love Tibet.

Posted by: mei on April 13, 2008 12:29 AM

Another unbelievably venomous piece I read was this:

Excerpt:
"China's plan...try to get world sympathy for their OPPRESSIVE NATION by using a CRIPPLE in Jin Jing, the third torchbearer in the FAILED Paris leg of the "Relay of Shame" torch toss. Have the heads of government in China no PRIDE? How low will they stoop to save face if they are willing to use a CRIPPLE in a wheelchair in their Propaganda Campaign?

Jin Jing from Shanghai should be ASHAMED OF HERSELF for participating in the torch relay...in short, she got what she deserved when protestors tried to extinguish the flame."

I know I should be rational and tell myself that this writer is a douche bag. But 1000 deep breaths later, I am still very angry. And let me tell you that I'm not even from the mainland.

Posted by: mei on April 13, 2008 12:50 AM

Regarding JS opening note, stating the difference in the coverage between CCTV and the Western media, I think it is more than just the Chinese government trying to save face.

It reveals a difference in the approach between the Chinese media and the West. The Chinese media is pretty much of 大事化小，小事化无 (loosely translated as "converting a major incident to a minor one, and a minor one into none). Its merits are of course debatable.

As for the Western media which is dependent on sales, well, nothing else sells like sensational news. This explains the increasing use of incitory language and leading statements, journalistic integrity be damned.

Posted by: mei on April 13, 2008 1:44 AM

We don't need more boycotts but more open, honest and frank dialogue to try to iron out differences and to resolve any misunderstandings.

Posted by: Shrek7 on April 13, 2008 1:55 AM

@Confused, good question. I guess that is the key questions many people may ask.

First question, why anger against France is stronger. For several reasons. Reports from blog and message from people in France described that it is not just the protesters, many people (bigger portion of common people) in Paris joined the violent protests (I saw many pictures with body attack). Besides that, three particular events gave people strong impressions about Paris: 1) Disabled girl Jin Jing was attacked on the wheelchair by Pro-Tibet protester. 2) The Paris Mayor hanged banners in the city hall, an action perceived as representing the city, instead of just protestres. 3) The headline about "the miserable defeat of China" in the major newspaper. This is my guess about why anger against Paris is stronger than UK, and US. For UK and US, based on what I learned, people still think it is the Pro-Tibet group who made the trouble. For Paris, it is clearly the government (and some extends it to the people there) who are anti-China. This perception may be far from the truth, just as China's image in the international stage, but that is how the whole thing is "PERCEIVED".

For the second question about there are Chinese product in Carrefour, as I said, boycotting is an immature way of handling problems. It is based on the simple judgment that the world is completely black and white, and boycotting French Products "ONLY impact those French". However, the current world is a well connected world, and it is so hard to distinguish who owns which part. If you ask people who boycotting some product, they may also get very confused, and may ask back: "Well. It seems so. So, tell me what's next I can do just to make them feel bad?" I want to make it very clear that I don't like what is happening in Paris, especially those *violent* protesters, I don't think boycott really do the work.

For the last question, about why Chinese tend to take criticism for government so personally, there are two reasons, I think. First, due to 50 years of education by the current government, people have formed the thinking logic that the Party = the Government = the whole country. To the extreme extend, people are educated that the Party is the mother, and Chairman is the Sun.... This believe may fade out a little bit in the last 20 years, but is still there. For this part, I think it is more of a problem in China, instead of the rest world.

The second reason: because it is Olympic. If it were not Olympic Games, people may not take it so personally. Olympic is a dream of Chinese people for 100 years (please note: this is long before the current Communist Party was formed). Being invaded by many countries in the 1800s, and being a backward country for even longer, people in China do want to find a change to get back to the center stage of the world. That is the dream of almost everyone. For people outside China, it may be hard to understand the importance of this Game to normal people in China. So, by definition, Olympic don't have too much to do with the government, in some sense. Unlike people in many other country who just take it as a sport event, people in China don't think it that way. So, because of this, any attack to the Olympic Game in Beijing is the attack to the people.

Just as I told delegation from the US Congress, it is like the big fat wedding ceremony of the PEOPLE, not the government. Ruin the opening ceremony of a company is not a big deal for its employees, but to ruin someone's wedding is completely another story.

In conclusion, I won't say who is right or wrong in these unpleasant days. However, I do hope people understand each other more. I hope people in China to understand not to take political protest too personal, and hope people in France and other country to understand, people will DEFINITELY take it personal if you attack Olympic Game.

Posted by: Jian Shuo Wang (external link) on April 13, 2008 2:02 AM

Jian Shou:

Just as you want the foreigners to understand that the Chinese sees the Olympics as their "wedding" and that is the reason that the are hurt personally when there are protests against it, you have to understand that the foreigners do not see the Olympics in that way and they believe the protest against the Olympics is a protest against the ruling class of the host country rather than its citizens.

I was in the US during the Tiananmen Sq massacre and you should have seen the outcry against the Chinese government when they crushed their Han brothers and sisters. You have to realize to the foreigners that the Tibetans currently are seen in the same sympathetic light as the Hans who were crushed in Tiananmen Square. The way I see it, much of the criticism against the Chinese government from the rest of the world stems from what they saw them do against their own people in Tiananmen. So if you realize that this is the source of these protest, you might think about this in a different way.

Just a disclaimer, I am a Chinese American so I think I am seeing this whole thing from both perspectives.

Posted by: akam on April 13, 2008 3:17 AM

I've been tired to argue more, and think its no more value to.
I prefer co-understanding way and a peace world.
but this time, I DO START TO HATE MOST OF THE frEncH !!
..

btw, in the way to anti-anti-China war, 'This is not paRis!' is cool and expressive.

I would TRY to avoid business with French and avoid to know them !

Posted by: Njo-plain-Chinese! on April 13, 2008 5:52 PM

今天挪威晚邮报一篇分析文章讲述历年抵制奥运事件的后果，结论: 运动员是最大受害者。而对被抵制的东道主国家来说，抵制的效果统统微乎其微。

最近看到国内有网友发起抵制法国商品和法国游的运动。反映当然是有赞同的也有怀疑的。

俺个人暂不确定抵制法国商品和法国游是对还是错。不过俺相信，大批普通中国民众长期抵制法国商品和法国游于法国的后果，比对被抵制奥运或奥运开幕式的中国(如果发生的话)的后果, 要严重的多。

给你个发生在丹麦的例子，丹麦报纸《于尔兰邮报》2005年底刊登了一系列讽刺穆斯林先知穆罕默德的漫画，全世界穆斯林普通民众激烈抗议，同仇敌忾，长期抵制丹麦的奶类和肉类产品，乐高玩具等丹麦产品也在伊斯兰国家遭抵制，这使得丹麦的出口受到了严重的打击。

丹麦官方统计数字表明，在今年2月到6月间，丹麦出口下降了15.5%，而对中东地区的贸易额就下跌了一半。

丹麦国家统计局的有关数字指出，穆斯林主要市场沙特阿拉伯的出口下降了40%，利比亚、叙利亚和也门的出口也显著下跌。

丹麦官员指出，丹麦的商业损失了1.34亿欧元（1.7亿美元），当中奶类产品受到最严重的打击。

后来，报社主编通过该报网站发表公开信，就刊登亵渎伊斯兰教漫画一事作出道歉。他在信中承认，这些漫画的发表无可争辩地伤害了众多穆斯林。他为此深感抱歉。丹麦首相也准备派代表团去中东国家做出解释。

活该！

穆斯林抵制丹麦产品这件事与中国网友发起抵制法国商品和法国游的原因其实是一样的，都是普通群众的感情被严重伤害。

如果要抵制达到效果，这个抵制必须是来自大量普通民众的和长期的。

这篇文章，值得一读 丹麦漫画事件与“文明冲突论 http://www.globalview.cn/ReadNews.asp?NewsID=6912

其他相关文章 Danish Newspaper Apologizes, Receives Bomb Threat http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=77170&d=1&m=2&y=2006

Posted by: Tommy (external link) on April 13, 2008 7:28 PM

I take it then that Les Mis has not had much of a run in China. The French love a good demonstration. To the barricades! As Chinese people get more opportunities to come in contact with other countries what Britain and other European countries have know for centuries – the French will protest about anything. All I can say is that it’s just as well it wasn’t French farmers against the Olympic Torch.
And anyway, if T!bet is part of China and the poor girl was attacked by a T!betan then shouldn’t you be boycotting Chinese goods?

Posted by: mick on April 13, 2008 10:18 PM

Hi, I'm just a high school student in Shanghai and was attracted by your blog.
Accorading to what I have known about this affair, I can hardly post any political comments about it.
I think there's a small mistake in the article in paragraph "Government or People?". As far as I remember there are around 1.3 billion people in China not 13 billion.
P.S: Your blog is very readable :P

Posted by: Alvin Zhang on April 13, 2008 10:35 PM

to Wayfarer,

As you can see the response of Jian Shuo Wang to Confused, Chinese is particularly against French/Paris government's attitude toward China and its people. I have been reading many articles about what's going on in France long before the torch reply. France is the active supporter to publicly support pro-Tibet protesters. Many French cities/towns have been hanging Tibetan flag in front of their city hall. Many (not minor) French did take a active part in the protest against not only the torch relay but also personal attacks on our Chinese people. I read a lot of accounts from Chinese supporters who were there at their own. Did you see that in other countries? I am at California and I have not yet seen one single case. I also participated in the San Fran torch replay and have a very close confrontation with the pro-Tibet protesters. I feel very strongly that they were very rude compared with the supporters. But I also understand the police did a great job and a handful of protesters can not represent the friendly America people. I can see that, I can feel that. My conclusion is natually against French people and its products.

Trust me, my major is Finance and I also know boycott is very bad to the world economy. But I just can't convince myself of any purchase from French brands when I am always reminded by my human memory of the bad feeling. Knowing something bad to the world economy and trying to avoid it doesn't necessarily mean that perception overrides my personal and natural feeling. Finally, I do appreciate your perspective of reasonableness on the issue.

Posted by: Kevin on April 14, 2008 8:24 AM

Boycotting French retailer will be hurting China, because most of the products are probably made in China to begin with. Boycotting Carrefour on a large scale is most likely going to hurt China's economy and everyone's bottomline.

Posted by: Ralph on April 14, 2008 11:56 PM

The other reason why people boycotting French product is, since it is not allowed to protest (well. Legally speaking, it is allowed, with a permit, but no one can get the permit), boycotting is the only left way to show anger. If people do not boycott, what can people do?

Posted by: Jian Shuo Wang (external link) on April 15, 2008 12:08 AM

"If people do not boycott, what can people do?"

Take a step back? Reflect? Ponder? Self-examination? Gain insight? ..... Any time something makes me particularly angry/upset/whatever emotion, I stop and ask myself, "Why did I react like that?", then use it as a learning experience to better understand myself and why I feel/think/act like I do. Usually, my self-questioning reveals weakness on my part, which is great as it's important to know oneself and improve. It's a good life tool, try it.

Posted by: James Brown on April 15, 2008 1:54 AM

James Brown is a sage! I agree with his comments fully. Knee jerk reaction never works well. The world is changing dramatically; what goes around comes around. A responsible restraint China hosting a good Olympics games is the best answer to the world. There is a knife hanging over the heart -all Chinese knows that word. Chinese should fight for the last laugh not the last word.

Posted by: Verne on April 15, 2008 11:30 AM

yeah, why not boycotting all western products, just because in the west people have the right to protest and tell their opinion and in china not!
to everyone this has nothing to do with the olympics, but the olympics are used to get some attention!!!!
so if the chinese government says the riots in tibet was initiated through the dalai lama, of course there will be people who don't agree with this statement!
but if the western media says there are some people who don't agree that the olympics are held in china, doesn't mean, that all the westerners are like that!!!! and as you can see they also get arrested for disturbing the public.
I think it wouldn't be that big of a story if the chinese government had arrested the people who were rioting in tibet, but they had to tell that it was kind of a political attack and blablabla...
china has to get more tolerant and that has to start with every chinese...

Posted by: ric on April 15, 2008 3:56 PM

To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from human right, etc...)
Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

Posted by: Myself on April 15, 2008 11:35 PM

To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from human right, etc...)
Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

Posted by: Myself on April 16, 2008 12:03 AM

To Jian Shuo Wang: if people in China are not allowed to demonstrate (neither allowed to select their own government, neither to benefit from humann right, etc...)
Maybe Chinese people should get angry against this situation, and not about one country which has always been one of the closest western ally of China.

Posted by: Myself on April 16, 2008 12:04 AM

it's as important an event as you make it to be, so.

Posted by: solopolo on April 16, 2008 12:18 AM

" French boycott Beijing Olympics in Paris, which leads to

Chinese boycotting French goods, which lead to

French or European country boycotting Chinese goods, which leads to

Even bigger boycotting in China.... "

-----------------------
With due respect, I think above is utterly rubbish! A classic Chinese chicken shit!

If this logic goes on, then any affirmative action in the world by anyone will inevitablely lead to a full-scale nuclear war?

Try to use it to convince American govt on its attitude towards terrorists.

In "Act of War", there are plenty examples on how to deal with this kind of situation. Boyccot in SPOT ON as alone as it keeps focusing on its main target, then it's no EU business!

European barbarians are always trying to bully weak nations. As long as China is weak, they will keep doing so for another 10, 20, 50, 100, 200 years, til the point when you have balls and power to say NO MORE SHIT!

I was in London when the touch past by my house, and I also went to Paris the following day.

Do you folks really think Europeans are dumb?
They don't understand the diff. bwt the East and the West?
They don't understand China?
They've never heard of the word "dignity" ? - as some fellow Chinese obviously have erased it from their DNA since 1840.

Ehe, don't kid yourself, will you.

Let me tell ya: there is no point to back off if you have with you a THICK BASEBALL BAT , becasue it is the only thing that they understand without a mistake.

K. Wang

Posted by: K. Wang on April 16, 2008 5:38 AM

I 've already thown away my Kenzo, Chanel, Aqua Di Gio, together with LÓreal shower, haircare shit. And since now on, I'll drink Spansih/Italian wine instead (no carrefour here), to show my personal support for boycott.

CHINA, GO!

Posted by: K. Wang on April 16, 2008 5:55 AM

It is an honor for us that the dictatorial government of China supports a boycott of our goods.

For your information, the word "French" comes from the "francs" which means "men who are free". We will revolt against anyone who wants to take us that freedom. And we support freedom of thoughs and opinions everywhere, like the right to say "free Corsica" or to show a Corsican flag.

Posted by: richard on April 16, 2008 6:07 AM

It is an honnor to be boycotted by chinese dictatorial government like it was to be boycotted by americans during Irak war.

THX

Posted by: Patrick on April 16, 2008 6:45 AM

" It is an honor for us that the dictatorial government of China supports a boycott of our goods.

For your information, the word "French" comes from the "francs" which means "men who are free". We will revolt against anyone who wants to take us that freedom. And we support freedom of thoughs and opinions everywhere, like the right to say "free Corsica" or to show a Corsican flag."

------------------------------------
Richard, try to get what I said clear before you volunteer some info:

I don't give a damn about commie CCP supports boycott or not. I am not even from China mainland. It is Chinese worldwide who will boycott you !

Try to take your freedom?

Did the Olympic touch want to take your freedom???

Did the disabled athelets want to take your freedom???

Or you violently revolted to take their freedom???

Since you revolt maniacs love freedom so much, why don't you revolt against your Sarkozy? cuz he has been sending more troops to foreign land for mass killing, which violently oppresses Muslin's freedom???

IT IS NOT A HONOR , IT IS A SHAME!

Posted by: K. Wang on April 16, 2008 7:39 AM

no ffrench good ? ok... so no french technology... no french holliday... we don't care of what the chinese people want to do with our good... and our goods are not obviously the best (you can choose spanish or italian wine , why not chinese wine ?)... to do the boycott it's your sole liberty.... and with the time you will understand that what we defended was only freedom, even if you don't like this.

french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

Posted by: wil on April 16, 2008 8:11 AM

no ffrench good ? ok... so no french technology... no french holliday... we don't care of what the chinese people want to do with our good... and our goods are not obviously the best (you can choose spanish or italian wine , why not chinese wine ?)... to do the boycott it's your sole liberty.... and with the time you will understand that what we defended was only freedom, even if you don't like this.

french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

Posted by: wil on April 16, 2008 8:12 AM

french people who always buy chinese good (because there is only this!!!) ;-)

If no, start stripping right now... LOL.

P.S. I think they don't export Chinese wine. Otherwise, there is a potential to wipe off Italian, Spanish and French wine all together - not an effective boycott tool then.

Posted by: K. Wang on April 16, 2008 8:28 AM

You should better not to buy wine if you are going to buy Spanish or Italian wine !!

It's your right to not buy french wine but it seems to be the truth that France is THE country of wine! However, I know that there are some good wine in South Africa or Australia but in fact there are a lot of french people who went in these both countries in order to make some wine. If there are good wines there it is thanks to our wine producers.

I think that french people in Paris didn't protest against chinese but in order to show that in China there are people who aren't treated as human at all. I heard an example of a Tibetan girl who said that chinese authorities stole her diploma in order to sell it to another chinese. Do you think it's right?
Or another example, a tibetan man who has been sent into jail during 13 years and he was tortured just because he carried a tibetan flag. Do you think there is a reason to accept such a thing?

I don't think so!

I know that some of you is going to say I'm wrong and that is french media which tells false info. But you should better think about how china's government has formed your way of thinking since 50 years!

Rémy, a french student living in south of France

Posted by: Remy on April 16, 2008 10:10 AM

Boycott A vs. boycott B is a fair action. Let the French boycott the opening ceremony because it is our way of signaling that we do not agree with what is happening in Tibet. Let the Chinese boycott the French product in return, so that you can express your feelings to.

It just has to stop there afterwards. I do believe that China needs France and Europe, and that Europe & France need China as well. Moving both parties away from each other will only deserve both of us. I have two passports (a French & a German one). Watch the point of no retrun in history, when things go too fast and too far. It happened not so long ago.

BTW, did you know that Goebbels invented in 1936 the tourch journey from Athen to Berlin. Olympics are a political game, and it is the politician that manipulate us...

I do believe in EU - china friendships. I had mabo-tofu for diner yesterday, loved it !!!!!

Posted by: The happy french frog on April 16, 2008 10:16 PM

Friends, read this link, and you know what is actually happening in London, Paris and San Francisco;

http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/56145

Posted by: Kuet on April 17, 2008 2:01 AM

Why so many French friend are still proud of their "freedom"? OK, I respect you enjoy your freedom, Chinese also enjoy their economy boom.

Chinese government is a government of dictatorship so Chinese should get angered? Chinese enjoy the economic development to get more economic power. Chinese trust their own government given the fact. Do you think French would give their money to feed Chinese? No way. You government of freedom has given you self-pride, unemployment and time to express. If the government can have the poeple living better and improved, why complain? complain for what, too fast development?

French people don't don't think you can represent the EU. Chinese is boycotting France only, not the EU. Don't bother EU please.

Calm down? Chinese calm down for long time enough and seems they were not heard. When the boycott voice is getting louder, the French suddenly jump out to yell. Interesting.

You are talking human right. Why you don't ask the majority of Chinese people? Chinese people is the only 'victims' if China has human right abuse, not French. You are appreciated to say something for the Chinese, but you can not distort the voice of their own.

French is always proud of their everything. I have admit French wine is the best for many people. But Chinese will suffer a lot if they don't buy French wines? Even Chinese buy, it will taste different becasue Chinese realize how many, if not all, French are full of hatred of China.

Shamed to compromise, or dignified to sacrifice? Chinese prefer the latter for sure.

If you think China "brainwash" the Chinese, why there are so many different voices in China for various issues? Chinese is not stupid. 50 millions Chinese are living overseas, and the louder voice of boycott on French goods comes from them. Are they being brain washed by China government while living outside China? Make no sense at all.

Posted by: Kevin on April 17, 2008 2:04 AM

Why so many French friend are still proud of their "freedom"? OK, I respect you enjoy your freedom, Chinese also enjoy their economy boom.

Chinese government is a government of dictatorship so Chinese should get angered? Chinese enjoy the economic development to get more economic power. Chinese trust their own government given the fact. Do you think French would give their money to feed Chinese? No way. You government of freedom has given you self-pride, unemployment and time to express. If the government can have the poeple living better and improved, why complain? complain for what, too fast development?

French people don't don't think you can represent the EU. Chinese is boycotting France only, not the EU. Don't bother EU please.

Calm down? Chinese calm down for long time enough and seems they were not heard. When the boycott voice is getting louder, the French suddenly jump out to yell. Interesting.

You are talking human right. Why you don't ask the majority of Chinese people? Chinese people is the only 'victims' if China has human right abuse, not French. You are appreciated to say something for the Chinese, but you can not distort the voice of their own.

French is always proud of their everything. I have to admit French wine is the best for many people. But Chinese will suffer a lot if they don't buy French wines? Even Chinese buy, it will taste different becasue Chinese realize how many, if not all, French are full of hatred of China.

Shamed to compromise, or dignified to sacrifice? Chinese prefer the latter for sure.

If you think China "brainwash" the Chinese, why there are so many different voices in China for various issues? Chinese is not stupid. 50 millions Chinese are living overseas, and the louder voice of boycott on French goods comes from them. Are they being brain washed by China government while living outside China? Make no sense at all.

Posted by: Kevin on April 17, 2008 2:05 AM

And French friends please don't think the EU is country and it acts like a country. Do you see any voice from other EU countries talking about the issue? In fact they are more than happy because Chinese who previously buy French goods will turn to buy goods from Spain, Italy and the UK etc. They will be the beneficials at the expense of France. So they would not speak loud against the boycott. Let's see.

Posted by: Kevin on April 17, 2008 2:35 AM

I am french and i love all the people.
I don't hate anyone nor Chinese !

I like China, it is a powerful country who has now a good economy. I don't know persons who don't like China, but yes i know persons who think that the Rights in China are not very respected.
The demonstration is not against China and Chinese but for the freedom although Your government has not totally wrong because a big country need to be supervised for harmony.

Yes, China is not our country, but it is our freedom, anchored for a long time to us. There was tibetans in this demonstration and because they were in France, we don't deny them this freedom !

Why boycott France ? there was not all Paris in this demonstration and Paris is just a town in all our country ! It is always media who control ours actions :(
The boycott against France is not a good way face to a minority of demonstrators !

Me, i don't agree with this displaced demonstration but with that boycott too. You have the right to receive the olympics games.
Peace and love.

Posted by: Pierre antoine on April 17, 2008 3:38 AM

>I don't give a damn about commie CCP supports boycott or not. I am not even from China mainland. It is
>Chinese worldwide who will boycott you !

Please do boycott us.

The CCP is strongly encouraging it, and it's a sign France is right (just like we were right on Iraq). Beside, all the nationalistic feelings that go with it are stupid, don't you think?

Looks like one more attempt to mask the real questions : why did they jail a non-violent political opponent for 6 years? why shouldn't people be allowed to say "free Tibet" if they want to? (no matter if they're "right" or "wrong", they should be allowed to express themselves). Without freedom of speech, no freedom of the press, no opponents - handy for the government hey? they can just do whatever they want.

Personally, I am very happy that anyone can say very bad things about France. As Voltaire said, "I may disagree with you what you say, but I will fight up to death so that you have the right to say it".

>Try to take your freedom?
>
>Did the Olympic touch want to take your freedom???
>
>Did the disabled athelets want to take your freedom???
>
>Or you violently revolted to take their freedom???

Media attention is the preferred means of the people to express their point of view. No media means nobody will hear you. That may look stupid, but that's how things work in a country with freedom of speech and freedom of press. But you can close the TV if you don't want to see that.

>Since you revolt maniacs love freedom so much, why don't you revolt against your Sarkozy? cuz he has
>been sending more troops to foreign land for mass killing, which violently oppresses Muslin's freedom???

Every week there are protests. Eventually politicians are forced to change their politics. The protesters are NOT put in jail; and so can act freely. This is the main difference.

As you see, you're not far of that - just try to get (really) independant newspapers; free association of people; free election, and that's it!

So when will you revolt?

Posted by: Richard on April 17, 2008 5:24 AM

If you are thinking, you know that you can't shut people up. Nor can you take my identity away. I am a proud Chinese. Nobody on this earth can take that away from me.

I said what I said because I care. Some of you don't care if I care or not... it goes both ways... tough, isn't it. As long as the platform is open, as long as Wang allows different voices, you'll see me around. You pick your way to show your understanding of national pride. I have my way of looking at it. I am indeed honored to be the target of these matters.

One World, One Dream. Sounds great. What kind of World will that be, a world with one voice, one color, one way of thinking? No, thank you! Unity that doesn't allow different voices to be heard is brainwashed. Societies which don't allow disagreements are brainwashed societies.

Tibet is a problem... it doesn't matter if we (Han Chinese) like it or not. How and when it can be solved, I don't know. But all Chinese have to face it. If you really love the motherland, you make sure that the government don't solve problems like this with guns. If you don't, one day that same gun may be at your face too.

China is big and already powerful... what happened surrounding this Olympic proves that to all. It is about time to get rid of the victim-mentality. International fairs are not about feelings anyway. Either you learn how to listen and communicate with people who don't agree with you, or, you shut. It is your choice to be hurt (on feelings) or not. If you choose to be hurt... nobody can stop you.

Posted by: GN on April 17, 2008 11:21 AM

@Remy : Your country is no more perfect than ours so you can stop the hot air. Where was your people's evolved humanity when you helped the Nazis kill Jews ? The pitiful smattering of resistence is still a joke to your saviours. Your treatment of Algerians is nothing to be proud of. And thanks too for nuking the pacific and blowing up the Rainbow Warrior. You go deal with your history and we will deal with ours. France is no bastion of democracy just because it gives out silly statues with torches.

Posted by: wonton on April 17, 2008 11:51 AM

@Richard - I am not agreeing nor disagreeing with your post (you are obviously very passionate - given your controversial proclamation that 'we were right on Iraq' - millions would disagree with you) - as I have said many times on these threads, it is not my position to do so (as an outsider)... most non-Chinese do not understand the intricacies of the situation or the history leading up until now (no matter how much they -we - think we are knowledgable or how strong the views).

I would however like to make a brief comment on your statement: "why did they jail a non-violent political opponent for 6 years?"... on this point, I think it's open to interpretation - it depends on what one's definition of 'non-violent' is. I'd like to take the opportunity to repost this link from a couple of week's ago (apologies to those people whose servers are on the China mainland and may be affected by the GFW).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsoc4-QnplY

On the 'non-violent political opponent' descriptor, I think the jury is still out - does a person who makes 95% of his innocent country people suffer dire hardship and starvation under a 'theocratic' regime (in the name of religion) allow that person to get away unscathed because he is 'non-violent' by not physically hurting someone with a weapon? In other circumstances, what the theocracy had done in Tibet could be considered 'crime against humanity' and perpertrators could be subject to more than just 6 years jail (could it not?).

Once again, I am not taking sides here - I am just suggesting that you should not learn your history from western media. Especially as it relates to China and Tibet. Take care and God bless!!

Posted by: AussiePB on April 17, 2008 12:12 PM

@GN : I totally agree with you.
We MUST learn how to listen and communicate with people who don't agree with us.
Voices of patriotism must be heard, along with traitors.
Lets not forget jackasses also deserves their 15 seconds of fame.
Of course, choosing which group to side is a personal decision.

Posted by: wonton on April 17, 2008 12:15 PM

To Warfarer and others who shows their understanding:

Thank you a lot and what you said help me calm down myself. I am a Chinese, I stayed in the US for 7 years and now I live in Singapore. After reading your words, I really want to express my appreciations.

To those who are against Chinese:

Actually at the very beginning, we were angry with CNN, BBC and other medias who use pictures, which show Nepal police repressed the Tibetans, to against China government to say that it was the Chinese Police who repressed the Tibetan protestor. At this stage, some overseas Chinese got angry, but not too many, for many of us not put much attention on it. We were used to so-called (we always called CNN BBS and etc. like this) western major medias that they seldom say anything good about China. Then the torch relay began, the media put all their attention on the Tibetan protestors pretending that all the common Chinese were not there although there were more Chinese in London and Paris to support China host for the games. And on the TV and internet, the Nepal police was still stated as Chinese police. Especially in Paris, when we watched that Jin Jing the girl on wheelchair was attacked by a protestor, the angry became a outrage among most Chinese. Paris said that there were how many police there, but we were so angry that they could not even protect a girl. So we doubted if they did their work properly or even on-purpose to let the protestor did what he did.

These brought back our bad memories. At these stage, the topic about Tibet is less important (In our oppinion, people outside China knew nothing or quite little about Tibet and entire China, but scold us for it, which is not only ridiculous but on bad purpose.), the topic in our eyes become a excuse for some western medias and governments to against all the Chinese.

It is time for both or more sides to calm down to think about it. The main problem is cultural difference between Chinese and western people.

Chinese is a race that hate wars for we have such enough wars during our too long history. We just hate wars. So after Tang Dynasty, people tend to be dove-oriented. That's why during the world war II, many Chinese chose only to tolerate, so a famouse Chinese writer said in a novel that only after ManNian (a kind, pure and innocent Chinese woman) knew the need to fight against the Japanese, the majority of Chinese peopel knew to stand up to fight, in the novel she got raped by Japanese soldiers and at last she got killed or committed suicide, which I forgot, but as to women in the past all the same, after getting raped she could not live with it.

And we are also a people that treat others better than ourselves. That is always a pity for us. For Chinese inside China, China goverment always treat its own people not so good, but sometimes gives in on foreign matters. That really has a deep cultural root. Many says Chinese like to save face, that is right. In fact, not only save face but to give our best to others "有朋自远方来，不亦悦乎“. In a poor family, even they cannot get enough food, they will offer the guest all their food. That is not a show, that is from their true heart. Now, China is not so hungry any more, in some part, some people are rich, they want to give others a big treat as the games. But people don't want to take the treat and even hit us in the face. Some westerners may think we are so stupid, yes, we are that stupid.

And on the other hand, westerners think we are so smart or even sneaky or furtive. That's also true. For example, We Chinese will bargain a lot and try to get something as low as possible. In China, if someone like me buy something without bargain, he/she will be scolded as fool. As my mom always say me "缺心眼". We live this way, like it or not, this is a part of our culture. But maybe it is strange enough for some westerners, that we bargain with dealors and at the same time we alway willing to lend money to our friends. That's why if some Chinese in the US have financial problem with their house loan, they seldom get bankrupt, they are easy to find friends to borrow money. Another example is we seldom speak out if we are angry with someone or our boss. We will murmur within our friends, we won't speak directly to the person. Our friends always say "忍了吧“ means just tolerate it. We are afraid to offend others to make them unhappy, we also afraid of losing our job, so sometimes we look sneaky. This time, many Chinese stand up and speak out, that means they are really really really angry. "忍字心头一把刀”, tolerate (忍) means one(一 -> 、) knife(刀) on top of a heat(心). When we cannot bear the knife any more we will erupt a lot of power. But again we do not want war, we only want some understanding. Boycott is just a way that we learn from you and try to get your attention. So pity of us, right?

And for us, we need understand your culture, like we do not care much about our privacies like you do. So we need cherish your privacies. We do not quite understand your media and government only represent themselves not all the people. (Our sense of group can compare your sense of individual----that's one of the major culture difference between Chinese and Westerners.) So we tend to think the whole people against us.

Cultural difference is such a massive topic that nobody alone can handle it. I just want to point out there are differences, and hope everyone including me shows some understanding to others. No need to agree with us, and no need to make friends with us, but only some understanding.

Thanks a lot for your attention and patience or even toleration.

Posted by: Z on April 17, 2008 6:12 PM

yeah, no more long lines at Carefour!!

Posted by: Michael on April 17, 2008 6:16 PM

mistake: tolerate (忍) means one(一 -> 、) knife(刀) on top of a heart(心).

Posted by: Z on April 17, 2008 6:26 PM

I agree, in the West Chinese products should be boycotted as well!!

Posted by: tufftugg on April 17, 2008 9:57 PM

Those proud French mobs, try this one out, see what you have done, still proud? so shame on you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAgOTXv8x5s

Posted by: LIANG on April 17, 2008 10:13 PM

While I don't claim Western governments to be 'clean' or 'non violent' the difference between George Bush and Hu Jin Tao is that george bush's term will end after a total of 8 years in office. George Bush's party can lose the next elections and through the power of numbers Americans can 'voice' their disapproval of their government's actions through a VOTE - something which the Chinese system lacks.

Secondly China has to stop acting like a victim because it is not. When you boast the largest army in the world and lie about your military budget, when you are one of the world's fastest growing economies, yet refuse to increase the value of your currency to reflect that as is the accepted practice of economics in order to retain overseas' dependance on chinese labour at the expese of the overworked poor, and humourously when you 'paint' fake grass in order to make IOC inspectors choose you to host the Olympics you are NOT a victim.

Surely with so many countries agreeing on China's hand in the Darfur crisis, in powering Burma's military dictatorship, in taking over Tibet by holding and killing peaceful monks with guns, and by blocking many moves in the UN by voting against resolutions that would see the end of the crisis in Darfur and Burma, how can you still claim China's innocence? The Chinese government has a habit of providing 'violent' and 'corrupt' governments with weapons and then claiming that they cannot interfere in the business of other countries affairs. I'm sorry, but this irresponsible money hungry dance has gone on for too long.

China has a huge influence in the world and they believe that the Olympics is a testament to this. Unfortunately I and many others on this planet believe this influence so far has been of greed and violence, and a way to insult this money hungry, trigger happy Chinese Government is for the average joe like me to support boycotts of these Olympic games.

Posted by: Hbomb on April 18, 2008 12:16 AM

Hi! I'm french but asian! From now, french people have very racist words for asian people in France! I am not chinese but for them, it's the same. So, to answer french racism, boycott them! Chinese people are not chinese government. French people are not Sarkozy. China don't have to do anything with France because french vanity is too high! if human is too important for people, the Olympics in Sydney should have to be boycott too! why doesn't nobody do it? Austria killed aborigen for a long time and treat them like animals, so, why nobody was boycott them?

Posted by: Flow (external link) on April 18, 2008 12:40 AM

Hello all of you.
I am slightly nervous about writing here as I am involved in the protest about Tibet, Burma and certain people arrested in China shortly before the torch ceremony in London. However as I am resident in Switzerland, I never had any intention of taking part in demonstrations. My activities have been to write polite letters to politicians and prominent people asking them to raise these issues, when they have the chance, with those in power in China. I do not hate the Chinese people, I do not approve of any form of violence. I certainly do not approve of the people who either tried to grab the torch or attack those given the honour of carrying it.

You may feel that I have no right to question the chinese government and that I am ill informed about China, but as I read comments here, I feel that your intensions are basically good. That you are trying to find a way of letting people know how you as individuals feel, about events that are completely out of your control, that no-one seems to be able to stop.
I believe you are all able to understand that that is all the ordinary people in Europe and America are trying to do.

Maybe we are all ill-informed. I would like the chance to listen to you and discuss with you. Thanks,Jana.

Posted by: Jana on April 18, 2008 1:11 AM

Hello all of you,
I read all the message, what i can say it's :
It's easiest to criticize or explain that we are right.....

Someone said you limit yourself to think in black or White...... or 0 and 1 ... but nothing in the nature is extreme... all is grey..... only the Man are not aware about that

So all of you are right ..and all of you are wrong..

Instead to try to reach a bad situation... and it's easy...to do that...life is like that..and very often it's the root of the war...

Try to take the hardest road..... .. try to find the conditions to solve the probleme without asking anything to the other side...

... what are you thinking about me ?? am french guy or Chinese Guy ??? ??? easy as you can read my english is very bad..... ...lolll

So I'm half French half croatian..my wife is half French half Algerian.. we live in France..obviously.. .. and we'll go to Shanghai for 3 years with our little children.....And the only think that we are proud of is that we think all countries, all people, all culture are interesting... it's our inheritance and it's must be protected

Finally, ..sorry if i don't used any warlike word... you can say....it's easy to write these things ...when you see the problem at the tibet or in our French suburbs .. i'll reply "Yes you're Right... but it could be the beginning of what i hope... ..even if i'm not a descendant of confusius....or Luther King

Best regards
Seb

Posted by: seb on April 18, 2008 5:39 AM

If I could add that it is a little unfair to single out the French as people travelled to Paris from all over Europe to demonstrate, including England and Switzerland. Not that that excuses anything. Jana

Posted by: Jana on April 18, 2008 8:18 AM

I am french, i live in shanghai and i will boycoot french products in China.
some french people are stupid crazy WRONG about the way to deal with china people on tibet riot

wangjianshuo, i love your blog

I AM NOT ALONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: mr robert on April 18, 2008 1:07 PM

Dear Mr Robert (lollll)

tkink about the add value of your message ??? ?? hummm , Good !! you're progressed ...

I am completely deafened by your level of discussion.......for the moment all of you are not able to take the good way. .....i would say ...the only way....

to support the hatred, the extremism, the nationnalism certainly is exciting and very human.... but that is not the good direction (take any book of history... seed of war)... who can understand that??....

nobody ???

So ....Sorry .... and bye....... seb

Posted by: seb on April 18, 2008 2:36 PM

As a common person in China, I hpoe everything is calm for China with the international society and within China.
The reason is quite simple, calm means everything for Chinese economy and culture developing.
If the contry is rich then the common people can get a better life and public insurance.
Personally, I don't support any violent political revolution, instead, I like internal peaceful revolution.
So, if anyone trying to do something causing unrest to China society, I will be the first one standing up and against him.
The current Chinese goverment is trying to do something good for the Chinese people, maybe not their best, but which goverment is doing their best? No goverment is perfect.
We common people don't care about that whether the goverment is socialism or otherlism.
If the goverment is good, I'm with them, if the goverment is bad, I will be the first to against them.
If anyone want to challenge China our good Chinese goverment, I will against them.

Posted by: feilong on April 18, 2008 7:57 PM

Folks advocating a French product boycott seem to forget that the life-cycle of French products passes through the chinese ecnomy. . . hence a boycott of French products WILL hurt chinese producers, (granted that this will occur perhaps indrectly).

Perhaps an appropriate response from French folks would be to boycott the games. What a farce the 'precious' olympics would be if nobody turned up. . .

Posted by: phil_style (external link) on April 18, 2008 8:14 PM

feilong i like your message...and hope the majority of the chinese think like you....

noboby is perfect... and no governement is perfect

lot of world challenges arrive...climatic change...petrol....hunger...poverty.. and we must be together to raise them... ...add one more it's not useful... :(

so... i'll arrive for 3 years at shanghai....and it'll be a good experience... i'm sure...... meet a other culture is always a good experience..... ... for you...and for me...

seb

Posted by: seb on April 18, 2008 8:14 PM

Feilong, I can relate to what you are saying. When Tony Blair was first elected, I felt he was doing good things for Britain (the peace agreement in N, Ireland for example), so I voted for him again. When he decided to invade Iraq, i thought he was wrong, so I voted for someone else. But knowing British history, I do listen to opinion from outside Britain, as we have got things so wrong in the past, and I don't want us to get things wrong in the future. Wish I had a time-machine sometimes.

Posted by: Jana on April 18, 2008 8:26 PM

phil style
answering by a boycott against a boycott... is always a bad think.....according to me...

seb

Posted by: seb on April 18, 2008 8:34 PM

Oh yes, Congrats guys, you got your protest on the major news-channels in the west ;-)
Lets hope the coverage is not biased and distorted like the anti-Tibet protest. The western media only showed the violent protests not the peaceful ones.

Posted by: Jana on April 18, 2008 9:16 PM

@Jianshuo

Hi there, you are mentioned in a BBC article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7347821.stm

I am not sure if you are able to read this article in Shanghai, so I am producing it here....

Cheers

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

China online: Tibet and torch reaction
Over the past few weeks Chinese bloggers and people on internet forums have been reacting to events in Tibet and the protests disrupting the torch relay.

This is a summary of some of the trends so far.

BOYCOTTING FRANCE
================

Blogs, internet forums and text messages circulating in China have urged consumers to boycott French goods in response to the protests that accompanied the torch relay in Paris.

Popular anger at chaotic scenes which saw pro-Tibet protesters grab the flame from Paralympic fencer Jin Jing has been inflamed by detailed accounts posted on the internet by eyewitnesses.

The blog EastSouthWestNorth translated the most notable of these posts from popular Chinese internet forums and newspapers.

One bystander waiting by the Seine for the torch to pass found himself involved in the scuffle for the torch. He recounted his experience on popular Chinese-language forum Tianya.

"The brave girl lowered her head and used her back to shield the torch. The thug pulled her shoulder back and hit her... Tears rained out of my eyes. I was sad and angry. Here was an unarmed girl who was handicapped, and the thug had to hit her?"

The anger and the bewilderment at the actions of the protesters is palpable in one of the response posts: "Who is abusing human rights? Who is bringing violence to this world?"

Lists of products and brands to boycott, including Louis Vuitton and French retailer Carrefour, have been widely circulated.

Blogger Wang Jian Shuo says several of his friends have started to boycott French products and describes the impact of recent events on his own thinking: "If you need an example, I am the person in China who were turned from pro-France to anti-France within few days. .. I don't think France is a friendly country at all."

"DON'T BE TOO CNN"
===============

The latest ditty to catch the imagination of the Chinese blogs and chatrooms is "Don't be too CNN" - a musical retort to the perceived bias of western media outlets such as CNN and the BBC.

"Don't be too CNN", broadly intended to mean "don't ignore the truth", has a music video which has been posted on many blogs and forums in China. The lyric has assumed the status of a cult catchphrase.

There are at least two versions of the song circulating. One version features a young woman singing about CNN's coverage of events in Tibet with screen grabs from the CNN website.

Another is set to the tune of Britney Spears' 1998 hit, Baby One More Time, and denounces both CNN and the BBC. In one scene from the video for that version the emblems of both organisations are emblazoned on a woman's buttocks.

One of the biggest Chinese language online portal sites, Sina.com, has a popular page: "Don't be too CNN, fire to the Western media."

CAMPAIGNS AGAINST INDIVIDUALS
==========================

John Kennedy, who translates and collates highlights from the Chinese blogosphere for Global Voices, has highlighted instances where the online community has targeted certain individuals - and even taken its opposition offline.

He cites the example of Grace Wang, a Chinese student at Duke University in the US, who was spotted by other overseas Chinese taking part in a Free Tibet protest, which led to what he describes as "torrents of horrid abuse and at least one lengthy human flesh search engine witch hunt" which began on the Chinese language online portal Tianya.

The EastSouthWestNorth blog talks about "human flesh search engines" as a phenomenon where an online community is mobilised to track down specific individuals or facts.

In this case a friend of the student concerned has written to Global Voices to say that the harassment was so serious that the student's home in China was attacked with rocks.

An internet manhunt - complete with "Wanted" posters - for the man who allegedly wrestled the torch from Paralympic athlete Jin Jing has also been launched on the Chinese language anti-CNN site.

The media monitoring blog Danwei highlights the case of Chang Ping, a journalist and blogger who was labelled as a traitor on China.com forums - criticism which also made its way to the newspapers.

Chang Ping was attacked for his essay "How to find the truth about Lhasa" in which he says: "If we use nationalism as the weapon to resist the Westerners, then how can we persuade the ethnic minorities to abandon their nationalism and join the mainstream nation-building?"

ENGAGING CHINESE NETIZENS
======================

The disillusionment and outrage in China at the torch protests and the perceived bias of the western media is evident across countless blogs and bulletin boards.

Many commentators have said that the protests over Tibet have only served to strengthen Chinese nationalism rather than evoke sympathy for the Tibetan cause.

Sina.com has a petition against the Western media which has reportedly accumulated millions of signatures. Chinese language bulletin board Tiexue (Iron blood) has also hosted outpourings of anger.

In her blog RConversation, Rebecca McKinnon co-founder of Global Voices Online and assistant professor at Hong Kong University's journalism centre, says: "Lots of Chinese people now view the Western media, human rights groups, and Western leaders' criticisms of their country as part of the Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful."

She also points to the blog by an expatriate in China, Mutant Palm, who has been watching and commenting on the fallout from Tibet and torch protests online.

He tracked initial reaction to events in Tibet on Chinese versions of mobile phone social networks such as Fanfou. He argued in one early post that people should try and engage directly with Chinese "netizens" on networks such as Fanfou and Twitter in the spirit of constructive dialogue.

"Its time to start trying some things instead of just throwing our hands in the air and dismissing the other side as brainwashed, indoctrinated or oppressed. There's life out there folks, try making contact," he says.

Posted by: fujianren on April 18, 2008 10:32 PM

@LIANG : The most part of all our demonstrations are as it :o

There is men who want to show they don't agree -> they don't know the truth and then : this demonstration.

Ours knowledges of Occidentals and Orientals are both bads -> more discution should be good :(

Posted by: pierre antoine on April 18, 2008 11:16 PM

I started out in support of the boycott, as a show of support to my country and displeasure against the french. I felt that my quiet show of protest would be sufficient.
I was quite shocked and saddened when I saw the sea of protesters outside Carrefour. I think this is wrong. We can choose the decision we made but we should not harass people do do otherwise. I do not see someone walking into Carrefour as a traitor. He just needs to buy something. Carrefour has a right to do business here. Everyone, please show some restraint. I am afraid we have just lowered ourselves to the protesters' level. Where is the dignity in this ??
I am very sad.

Posted by: wonton on April 19, 2008 11:45 AM

Again, I will buy more French products than ever at this very occasion, just the same as a couple of years ago when I bought a lot more Japanese products than usual.
I love China, my motherland. But I believe the current Beijing government is reactionary and I boycott the upcoming Olympics.

Posted by: L7 on April 19, 2008 4:18 PM

In many African countries, local languages is not spoken as official language becuase of there is only one language being forced to learn - French. The same with the rest of Africa and Central and South America. But now the French is teaching how China should do to Tibet - seems she has a short memory.

The Chinese is a nation that respects others. Yet if others do not respect her, do not then be surprised by the boycott and burning of national flags.

I will not go to Carefour because of my anger.

Posted by: yinfeng on April 19, 2008 11:40 PM

How can you boycott the olympics it has nothing to do with politics, it is something to do with people from all around the world that participate in it. And it is wrong to relate chineese government with Olympics. You can boycott chineese government for what they are doing in Tibet separatly.
I think that Chineese people are doing the right thing by boycotting french goods. France is in no position to boycott the olympic games that the whole chineese nation was getting ready for. I think french should boycott themselves for their racism!!!!
I think that the whole world should boycott france and england for those attacks on flame cariers aspecialy Jin Jing, they are like animals no respect for other people. And western media is biased to the max.

Posted by: Oleg (Russia) on April 20, 2008 1:20 AM

A Russian asking how you can boycott the olympics?
Sorry still no pictures on the BBC, maybe you should smash something.
Congrats on your state-sponsored demonstration. :-)

Posted by: Jana on April 20, 2008 5:58 AM

I boycott Beijing Olympics because Beijing is using the Olympics as a tool to serve its propaganda, exactly the same as what Nazi Germany was doing back in 1936. Yes, I boycott most TV channels and newspapers in China for the same reason.
I would not boycott China's efforts that benefit the public's welfare and in the same time do anything possible to avoid/minimize any negative effects out of goodwill.

Posted by: L7 on April 20, 2008 6:07 PM

For all Wendy`s in China...

"I will not go to Carrefour any more, and I won't consider French cars in the future."

Q1: How many of Carrefour staff are foreigners, respectively French?

Q2: How many goods offered at Carrefour are French goods?

Q3: Where is your French car bought in China built?

Your answers Wendy?

Yeah, let´s bash foreign companies in China, as we are capable to do without them. Are your really capable to do it...? I doubt is, I highly doubt it that China will be today´s China without any foreign companies in China.

Can you imagine what will happen when there is a "No Made in China products!" ban coming up? Can you...?

m2c

gweilo

Posted by: gweilo on April 20, 2008 7:44 PM

China should respect the views of everybody. Allow discussions with Tibet and allow democracy. We do not approve of China government. China should tell government to allow democracy.

Posted by: Philip on April 20, 2008 8:59 PM

Dear Wangjiangshuo and other visitors
I am a oversea Chinese doing research on international issues, I was born after 80 and I have been lived in the west for years, our generation are remarked by western media as the 'me generation' because we are grow up under western influence which focuse on individualism. The reason I mention this is to show I am unlikely a member of alleged 'brainwashed Chinese'.

I would like add one reason why Chinese people take attach personally. Its not all about government propaganda.

Political China and Ethincal China a two related concept, they are not identical, but very often, people (both within or outside China) do not aware the difference when talk about it.

You can see in those rece